MGB & GT Forum

Tightening down on the washer causes it to harden and I'm sure that over tightening them will only make things just a bit harder, but will not necessarily make them seal better. Kind of like the old advice - tighten until the threads just begin to strip, then back it off a half a turn
Cheers,

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Dave DuBois
1953 MGTD
1966 MGB
http://homepages.donobi.net/sufuelpumps/

I've really never had any issue with copper crush washers sealing, guess I've been lucky, but I mostly do use new. Annealing should be done with a acetylene torch, the trick is to go heavy on the acetylene in your gas mixture settings, you know when it makes black smoke, then let air cool, I done this with aluminum many times when I needed to make tight bends with it, and I didn't want it to stress crack.

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Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Website: www.acmespeedshop.com
hapwaldrop@acmespeedshop.com

Of course you do know that a piece of gasket material placed on or under the washer will pevent the leaking. Or if you prefer a thin rubber gasket will work.

This is very bad advice. Brake lines and the like don't use paper or rubber gaskets because the internal pressure is too high. Copper is used because it can resist the pressures involved.

Adrian

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Home built Eaton M62 Supercharger with 8psi boost, 8:1 compression, custom "supercharger" cam from Schneider Cams, Mikuni HSR48 Carburetor, custom ground high ratio "stock" rocker arms, Maxspeeding rods with Teflon wrist pin buttons, custom aluminum cold air intake, CB Performance computerized ignition, Fidanza 9 pound flywheel, 1.44 exhaust valves in 48cc chamber head, matched manifolds, 2 1/4" exhaust system.

Many years I was accustomed to re-using copper washers everywhere on my B without any problems. But finally I needed new washers for my clutch line, MC-side. I noticed the new ones felt harder than the old ones and were not as flat as they used to be. Polishing them removed the blemishes and after renewing the hollow bolt (this bolt gives up faster than the banjo junction) finally the clutch link became tight.
No heating needed (yet)

In search for oil leaks I also renewed a number of washers in the oil junctions to and from the oil cooler, the engine block and the oil filter. I noticed someone had replaced some of them by so-called "crush washers of a much softer material than the flat ones. I wonder why this was not done more often: crushing means you have to renew the washer every time, but the new one always fits leakfree for sure.
Many cars have them for removing the engine oil and they used to be widely available in French supermarkets...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-02-02 10:18 AM by Donthuis.

X2.............. Copper is fine & just needs surface cleaning and annealing before if needed to be reused.

As a matter of process we would always anneal even new washers as the copper/alloy ones can age harden as well as having been work hardened by the act of stamping and piercing. If the manufacturer did not anneal before supply which many don't there is no knowledge how old the material has been on the shelf either before or after in stock before use. Only pure Cu copper does not age harden as it is the alloy content added now that creates that issue.

When surface cleaning used washers before annealing we were always advised to do in an orbital motion surface rub and never just rub straight across.

I wonder about this: did the enormous rise of the copper price lead to washers containing less copper in the alloy? I distinctly remember very soft almost "red copper" type washers in my Citroëns over the years. The yellow color of my last set of MGB washers ordered from MOSS surprised me. Darker types of washers "mold" themselves more to the shapes they are pressed upon. So these fall between red copper crush washers and yellow copper washers..

Another thing that comes to mind from my student days is the metallurgic effect of "cold fusion": when two equal metals are pressed together they bond. So if copper washers press to other copper parts (e.g. banjo connections) this would surely help preventing microscopic leaks (called "sweating" joints)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-02-03 04:11 AM by Donthuis.

You are absolutely right here Don copper prices went sky high so another cost saver adding cheaper alloys. Pure copper does not age harden only work harden. Mix it with alloy and it takes on age and work harden properties.

I have some old originals pure Cu copper washers and they are almost deep orange in colour. It is a bit like gold, look at the higher carat and the gold always looks a lot deeper richer in colour.

The last few AN fittings I've bought came with "dead soft" aluminum washers. Seem to work fine.

For bolts that do NOT involve hydraulic lines (like brakes and clutch) you might try the plastic washers that are now available. I was having troubles with the bolt that holds the oil filter adapter in place - so I found a plastic washer intended for the oil pan drain plug - it sealed perfectly.

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Terry Ingoldsby
terry.ingoldsby@DCExperts.com

On my oilfilter support where this thick hollow bolt comes from underneath towards the engine block a soft copper crushwasher was installed, yet another possibility. But since this support part is sealed on top with a rubber ring I do wonder about the amount of pressure on it. According to John Twist tightening this bolt and further compressing this rubber ring may be needed from time to time, (crush) copper or plastic washer or not...

Aluminium is softer and lets itself be compressed more easily. But the main disadvantage with this metal is its unpredictability under pressure over time. Non-alloy aluminium when put under pressure suddenly gives way and the pressure is gone (from my student days on metallurgy and construction principles). That's why aluminium cycle parts are nowadays often glued together and airplane aluminium is always an alloy (Airbus wings are from alloy glued together, a Dutch invention).

PS I take it with plastic you mean nylon, normal plastics are too brittle and do not support heat so well.

In areas where there is not high heat even on hydraulics or fuel lines I use the 'Dowty' washer. Part of TI Group and used in the aviation industry.

This is an encapsulated neoprene ring inside the washer. All of the hydraulic ram seals on my cherry picker have these fitted instead of copper washers as standard.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dowty+washer&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=otTvUrSlM8Kr0QWzsYC4Bw&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=1252&bih=644

Not sure if they would be OK for callipers there are seals inside a calliper but then if the hoses stand the heat the washers should. In saying that I can't remember whether they were used in brake circuit lines.

A worthy kit of accessories though in anyones spare fastenings

hey grant...when I redid my gt I found the hardest fittings to get at leaked the most....I had better luck than you(50% success rate) I just tightend the fitting until the leaked stopped,and always used a new washer of the correct size..good luck to you- scott

Looks of excellent build quality. I wonder what they cost, because in the aviation industry nothings comes cheap! Although it beats me why full copper washers can not be sold by MOSS at a premium as well. I wouldn't mind paying extra on fine quality washers, there are only a small number of them anyway and replacement is not frequent



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-02-03 12:42 PM by Donthuis.

Yes - I used the term "plastic" loosely - it was probably nylon but there are so many synthetics these days it is hard to be sure what they are. The "plastic" washers were intended for use on oil pans so I imagine they were spec'ed to tolerate normal engine block temperatures.

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Terry Ingoldsby
terry.ingoldsby@DCExperts.com