Getting copper washers to not leak : MGB & GT Forum : The MG Experience

Getting copper washers to not leak #1
MGsfor3Generations Grant MacKay Concord, NC, USA Sign in to contact	Topic Creator (OP) Jan 8, 2012 07:38 PM Joined 18 years ago 425 Posts

I continue to get frustrated with making copper washers make working seals.... clutch lines, brake lines, oil lines... it seems like whenever a copper washer is involved, I have about a 25% rate of making a leakproof seal. Is there any guidance to how tightly to tighten these washers? I am always using new washers, and as far as I know, they are always the right size, as I order them from the usual suppliers.....

Any suggestions are appreciated.

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #2
29desoto M Wayne Sanders Otis, OR, USA Sign in to contact 1965 MG MGB V6 Conversion "Carmine" 1973 MG MGB GT "Eliza - FIRST PLACE - MG2013" 1984 Chevrolet Corvette "The Green Weenie" 1994 Chevrolet S10 "Lil Red"	Jan 8, 2012 07:48 PM Top Contributor Joined 15 years ago 13,257 Posts

That's a pretty dismal rate of working washers. I don't know that there is any particular torque settings suggested for those things.

I think it's just tighten it good, and pray. Interesting question though. Normally this comes from someone who re-uses the washers.

(Although I have had some luck with annealing them and re-using them)

Wayne Sanders
Rose Lodge, OR
(TD 4288)

"I don't care to belong to any club that accepts people like me"-joined Willamette Valley Club in 2011

79/65 MGB - Carmine- V-6 - T-5

This car is now very nearly completely done. Sure to find something else, but not now.........And 12 years later, I'm starting to fix things that were new when we built the car. It's pretty well de-bugged!

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #3
lewisrn lewisrn L Danville, IN, USA Sign in to contact 1980 MG MGB "The "B"	Jan 8, 2012 07:49 PM Top Contributor Joined 15 years ago 13,565 Posts

My experience is different than yours. Whenever I've used new, correctly sized copper washers, the seal has been effective. Not sure what's happening with your low success rate, but I would be frustrated also.

“Ideological certainty easily degenerates into an insistence upon ignorance". Daniel Patrick Moynihan

In any debate, the side which strays from civil discussion is usually the side that lacks confidence in its debate position or in the merit of their arguments. Making personal attacks on the opponents instead of staying on the subject is also a sign of weakness.

Anyone who feels compelled to respond in kind to any perceived slight is often suffering from narcissism.

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #4
mac townsend Fairfield, CA, USA Sign in to contact 1973 MG MGB MkIII	Jan 8, 2012 07:55 PM Joined 20 years ago 24,294 Posts

anneal them.

Heat them red hot (propane works) then drop in a cup of water.

they get hardened after awhile. this softens them so they will conform better.

1973 Pale Primrose Roadster. A nice 10-footer!
SUs, Datsun 5-speed

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #5
NOHOME P P O, ON, Canada Sign in to contact 1967 MG MGB GT "Maggie (GT From Hell)"	Jan 8, 2012 08:13 PM Top Contributor Joined 19 years ago 19,051 Posts

In reply to # 1949792 by mac townsend anneal them.

Heat them red hot (propane works) then drop in a cup of water.

they get hardened after awhile. this softens them so they will conform better.

What he said, but I skip the water bit and air cool.

I prefer to use the old ones cause I know they was not made of china. I also find that a lot of the bits and bobs we buy for these cars are of a generic "one size fits all" specification.

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #6
Benny Ben E San Diego, CA, USA Sign in to contact 1964 Ford Cortina 1964 Land Rover Series IIA 1965 Ford Cortina 1965 MG MGB & more	Jan 8, 2012 08:27 PM Top Contributor Joined 20 years ago 7,531 Posts

In reply to # 1949814 by NOHOME
What he said, but I skip the water bit and air cool.

Yep, quenching them makes them hard again...let them air-cool.

I usually string about 5 of them together along a length of safety wire to hold them while I get them cherry red. Once they've cooled, wire-brush the layer of oxidation that will be covering them, and you will have your best possible chance of making a successful seal.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-08 08:29 PM by Benny.

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #7
ssduane Duane Paulsen San Diego, CA, USA Sign in to contact 1966 Chevrolet Chevy II "Mine" 1975 MG MGB "Jodys MGB"	Jan 8, 2012 10:18 PM Joined 16 years ago 1,038 Posts

step 1.

buy one of these.

http://www.harborfreight.com/micro-torch-42099.html

step 2.

anneal them, hang them on a wire or whatever, and SLOWLY heat them in a circular patern till they glow red, as soon as they glow, stop, and either quench them or let them air cool. Doesn't really matter as long as you use them. I prefer the air cool method.

Also, they should fit tight, the inner circumferance should tightly fit the shoulder of the banjo fitting they are being used on, and the outer circumferance should be about the same size as the bolt head.

current changes-
Delco 63 amp alternator, Energy/Prothane suspension bushings, front to rear, JVC deck with IPOD controls, new Moss radiator, ADCO front 7/8" sway bar, OD black label trans, chrome bumper conversion, tan leather interior, AA wire block.

future mods-VTO 8 spoke 15x6 wheels (on order)

Aquired parts-
snug top

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #8
GERONIMO Jim Barker Northeast, IL, USA Sign in to contact 1970 MG MGB GT "The Bearcar"	Jan 8, 2012 10:29 PM Joined 19 years ago 4,233 Posts

Water quenching has no effect on hardening copper after it has been annealed to a just glowing orange/red color. All that water quenching does is to lessen the time before it can be safely handled. It is best to allow the pieces to air cool, they are small and will not really take that long to settle back to room temp. Also, there is no need to hold the red color any longer than necessary, depending upon the alloy of copper, it could make the piece slightly brittle by doing so.

Jim B.

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #9
jdevol J Devol Swansea, MA, USA Sign in to contact	Jan 9, 2012 12:12 PM Joined 15 years ago 515 Posts

2 cents

Many years ago I seem to remeber being taught that heating iron relaxes the crystaline structure of the metal, and that quenching it at certain temps and rapidity created a different kind og strucutre and hardness. Some times we quenched in oil, some times in water, etc.

I recall being told that quenching has a different effect on nonferrous metals - that heating it can make it more brittle and that only after it air cools or is quenched will it be soft and suitsable for working.

So, cool with a quench or air, at your pleasure, but don't work a hot piece of copper or brass or it will probably break. Heat it up red and cool it one way or another before you work it. If you heat up a washer, the copper should relax so it will compress some whan you tighten it down.

Jim

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #10
Jim Stabe San Diego, CA, USA Sign in to contact 1966 MG MGB V8 Conversion	Jan 9, 2012 05:02 PM Top Contributor Joined 17 years ago 3,788 Posts

Make sure the mating surfaces that the washers are supposed to seal are flat and smooth. You can lap then with wet and dry paper on a flat surface. Also make sure the copper washers are flat and smooth. +1 on the anneal.

Jim

"If you want me to agree with you then we would both be wrong"

'66 MGB widened 11" with supercharged LT1 Chevy and 6 speed, C4 Corvette suspension
Pictures here Part 1 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,7581
Continued in Part 2 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,22422
Continued in Part 3 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,33108
Continued in Part 4 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,40751
Continued in Part 5 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,48698,48698#msg-48698
Continued in Part 6 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,61672

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #11
kenandsupa Ken Nashif Lynnwood, WA, USA Sign in to contact 1959 MG Magnette ZB "Peggy" 1973 MG MGB	Jan 9, 2012 11:07 PM Joined 17 years ago 123 Posts

Yes, annealing is the 2nd best method. Replacing with new is the best. After annealing ( as described above) dressing the surfaces usually isn't required, as the copper is once again soft and should conform to the surfaces with a good tightening. After the washer is annealed there is usually some black carbon residue on the washer. This can be easily removed ith either dressing the washer on a flat surface with fine emory cloth or if there is some deformation, cleaning it up on a file. Make sure that the surfaces you are trying to seal are clean and burr free also.

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #12
Dave Braun Georgetown, TX, USA Sign in to contact 1952 MG TD "Tommy" 1970 MG MGB "Maggie" 1974 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Sammy"	Jan 10, 2012 02:32 PM Joined 14 years ago 3,505 Posts

Working it (by emery cloth or any other flatening process is counter productive to the annealing process. Flatten it first and THEN anneal it.

warmly,
dave

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #13
Mgbinsc Adam Schanne Hilton Head SC, USA Sign in to contact	Jan 10, 2012 03:49 PM Joined 15 years ago 505 Posts

Or just get a new one that fits correctly for 75 cents.... The only time I've ever had copper washers not leak was when they weren't the correct size. Or just not tight enough.

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #14
ErnieY Ernie Y Albatera, Alicante, Spain Sign in to contact 1976 MG MGB GT	Jan 10, 2012 03:55 PM Top Contributor Joined 14 years ago 19,562 Posts

Unless new copper washers come with a piece of kit I have always used the old ones and can't ever remember one leaking on me, I have a collection of various old used one which I dip into when necessary, are you naturally unlucky ?

I'm not one for over tightening, maybe that's a clue winking smiley

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Re: Getting copper washers to not leak #15
Rogerio Simoes Marinha Grande, Portugal Sign in to contact 1969 MG MGB	Jan 10, 2012 06:45 PM Joined 19 years ago 147 Posts

In reply to # 1949792 by mac townsend anneal them.

Heat them red hot (propane works) then drop in a cup of water.

they get hardened after awhile. this softens them so they will conform better.

x2 I do the same to soften the copper. My father teach me this trick 40 years ago.

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