MGB & GT Forum

This subject was extensively discussed in recent weeks over on the MGC Forum. The thread was prompted by an MGB with the Australian "Blue Streak" engine put up for sale in Melbourne.
It seems that Sydney Enever (MG's long serving and highly regarded head of engineering) wanted to use the Blue Streak engine in the MGC. The prototype fitted with this engine apparently went extraordinarily well, and the engine was a much lighter and more compact unit than the C-series that was ultimately fitted to the MGC.
I've been communicating with Peter Neal, who spent his entire working life at the MG factory in Abingdon on a number of MG-related matters over the past three years or so. Here's a quote from one of Peter's emails, from February this year discussing alternative engines considered for the MGB:

You are dead right about the MGB needing a larger capacity engine.  The ‘O’ series OHC power unit was of course specifically designed for the B in the ‘70s to rectify this situation but sadly although we at Abingdon were all ready to go with it the powers that be decided instead to take the car out of production.  Such is the way of things.  Again Syd wanted to use the Australian engine in the MGC but Issigonis ruled it out.  I cannot tell you how frustrating it was to sit and watch Abingdon being starved of relatively small amounts of investment whilst seeing BMC and then British Leyland wasting vast amounts of cash elsewhere in the Corporation.

Best regards,

Peter.

And again, just last night:

Hi Thomas,

Colin copied me re your email where you discuss the merits (or otherwise) of the BMC ‘C’ series engine in the MGC. There is no doubt that Syd Enever would have preferred to use the Australian ‘Blue Streak’ motor in the ‘C’ but of course he was subject to Longbridge ( and particularly Alec Issigonnis) when it came to making engineering decisions. I will talk to Jim Cox about it over the next couple of weeks and let you know his thoughts on the matter. I will also show him the photo of the John Caffin supercharger installation the next time he comes into Kimber House.

Always good to hear from you.

Peter.

Here's the link to the MGC thread on the subject. (I've just noticed that it's had over 2,800 "hits"; is that some kind of record?).
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?48,2045884

Hi Thomas and Peter.

My name is Tom Webb, and I just happen to be in Victoria, Australia on a work visa from the USA. I have owned quite a few MGs in my time, and currently am restoring a Wolseley "1500" here in the Melbourne suburb of Mont Albert - mostly to maintain my sanity at being away from my own cars and car friends.

As a member of the Wolseley Car Club of Victoria, I can tell you what a superb engine the "Blue Streak" is, as it is fitted to many member's cars in the form of the Wolseley 24/80 saloon. The 24/80 is probably the "club car" of choice here, as they offer comfortable interior space and enough performance to easily keep up with modern traffic for touring on club rallyes.

I have seen a number of these engines retrofitted into MGBs with very little modifications needed to either engine or car. So the required complexity of the "C" series engine-to-chassis modifications that were required to create the MGC make even less sense to me now than they ever did before. There is a general attitude here in Australia that there was no way the "home office" would accept an engine designed and constructed by "colonials" to be fitted into a Abingdon-built MG, and hence, we were all made to suffer. BMC "logic" at it's best.

There was generally bad blood between BMC and BMC Australia, Ltd., as, for a long time, BMC Australia had beseeched the home office for engines with more power, and chassis with more strength, due to the often poor road and weather conditions here, and they knew they were losing family-car sales to Ford and Holden, who each had robust family saloons on offer with big, lazy in-line sixes. Those pleas always seemed to fall on deaf ears, and unfortunately, rather than listen to Australian input, BMC/Nuffield frequently dumped unsold, outdated models on Australian dealers, as newer, improved models were unveiled for England, Europe and the Americas. This despite the fact that BMC Australia was almost always more efficient and more profitable than their English home office!

The "Blue streak" was designed and cast and machined here in Australia, and could be constructed on the same lines, and with the exact same tooling as the "B" series four. Factory manifolds were available to fit triple SU carbs as a dealer-installed option, and again, I have seen a number of these. Our own club has a display engine that we frequently have at car shows, on an engine stand, running as smoothly as you please. A favorite trick is to leave the engine running, and while on display and with a suitably-sized crowd gathered, to balance a coin on edge on the rocker cover - triple SUs and all!

Cheers from Down Under,

Tom Webb

...And as a bit of a 'P.S' - I have also seen on some other threads where some people discussing engine swaps for the MGB have said that the "Blue Streak" was heavier than the BMC "C" series, and questioned the logic of using it as a swap. One or two of those comments were from Australians, which is both puzzling - and completely wrong.

Whilst I could easily see the logic in using a more modern, and readily available "six" as a MGB engine swap project (the "Blue Streak" would only ever be found in Australia), in fact this engine in only a "B" series with two extra cylinders, and it therefor weighs about 40-50 pounds more, at most, than a "B" series four. Probably about 440 pounds-ish.

By comparison, the "C" series inline six weighs nearly TWICE as much as a "B" series, at about 680 pounds!

Tom

Trevor - lovely photo! Makes you wonder doesn't it? Even in the 'States we were always wondering what the H**L the men in charge of BMC were thinking. I guess the answer is "not much"!? Poor MG was treated like a red-haired step child, yet they were the only reason that most Americans even knew that the English made cars. Without MG there would have been no "import" market at all in the 'States. So it was always so frustrating for those of us who were fans of them, to see them treated so off-handedly by "upper mismanagement".

Hey Trevor - this is hysterical. That photo was taken at the Wolseley Club's "chookshed" in Victoria. I am only too familiar with that dirt floor and even that little slatted-top table, because right now it's next to my Wolseley 1500 project car! I was fortunate that when we moved house, I at least got to cut up all the large cardboard boxes, and now have something to lie on besides dirt when under my "1500". One of our senior members, Lindsay Elliot, restored that engine, and has the responsibility of hauling it from car show to car show, whenever the club is out in force!

Do you think when I am sent home to the USA, that a "Blue Streak" engine would exceed my checked-baggage weight limit??? : )

If it's true that the smaller wrist pins were the only weak link in the "Blue Streak" maintaining high power levels, wouldn't it be a relatively easy fix?

Tom

Interesting thread. So are these Blue Streak engines rare?

Clay,

I probably can't quantify "rare" for you, but they were only ever cast and machined in Australia, and as far as I know, only fitted to the Wolseley 24/80, and the Austin Freeway - both BMC-derived large "Farina" style saloons - that were also only made here in the BMC/Nuffield Factory in Zetland, a suburb of Sydney. Smaller (four cylinder) engine versions of both cars were made in England, however, and plodded along with the "B" series four, which was probably a little over-tasked in what was/is a fairly large saloon.

Ironically, although BMC Australia had the knowledge and tools to develop and machine the engine, the castings were actually poured by Ford, to whom it was just another job they could earn money on! I rather suspect this was done to keep BMC England from knowing what they were up to here, as the whole thing was done on the sly - which maybe another reason there was no internal support at BMC/England for this power-plant.

The Wolseley Club here in Victoria does have a handful of these engines, pulled from cars that were too far gone to save, so they do exist. I think one will be coming home with me as part of my company-paid return moving expenses. I can easily call it an "end-table" on the bill of lading (I hope)!!! The beautiful thing is, if it fits a "B" series, it bolts right on to the "Blue Streak", i.e., bearing caps, end plate, flywheel, etc...

There is an excellent, large format, hard-cover book called "Making Cars in Australia" that covers the subject in detail.

Cheers,

Tom

You should probably also know that the "improved" 1600cc MGA engine (actually 1588cc), was first developed here in Australia, as the Aussies were pleading with BMC/England to do something about the available horse power from the "1500" B-series.

BMC/England said they couldn't make it any larger because of the bore-spacings, so BMC/Australia ignored them and went ahead with revised castings eliminating a portion of the water jacket between the front and rear pairs of cylinders and made it into a "1600". In fact, the engine in my Wolseley "1500", is actually a 1620cc, as it was also cast here in Australia, and originally fitted to the "Morris Major Elite" - an Australia-only version of the Wolseley. It even has "1620" cast into the left side of the block.

Of course, it appears BMC/England was only to happy to take the credit for all this re-engineering, and proudly proclaimed the "MGA 1600" in 1958!

Tom

So what exactly was the hold that Alec Issigonis had within BMC? He had his successes, to be sure, but there also seems to have been some rather thick-headed "vetoes" that he made, especially where MG models were concerned. As an engineer, how could he back the C-series engine and the associated complexity with the MGC, knowing that a simpler and less costly solution existed with the "Blue Streak?" Unless, of course, he knew it would not be successful and would become another nail in MG's coffin.

I'm not one to go in for conspiracy theories, but it seems that there were more than a bad management decisions that not only were against MG but also backed lesser and ultimately less successful designs.

Once is chance, twice is a coincidence, but three times is a conspiracy.

I'll repeat MGB65Bs link to a thread back in April '12 for some other viewpoints.

MGC Prototype

Danny

I believe the book that Thomas W is referring to is called "Building Cars in Australia"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-08 10:10 PM by Dandare.

Eric,

You do have to wonder, don't you? Maybe it was internal politics, but the more I read about him, the more I think he was a bit of a wanker, really. A brilliant wanker in some respects, but definitely a wanker.

How could an engineer who favored lightness and space efficiency choose to ignore the Blue Streak, and try to squeeze that boat-anchor "C" series into the MGB shell? I don't know.

I like a lot of the cars designed by Gerald Palmer, and I think he was a truly great engineer and body designer (Jowett Javelin, MG Magnette, Wolseley 1500/Riley One Point Five, etc.). He and Issigonis worked on some of those same cars together, and I have read that the one and only time he clashed with Issigonis, after raising some concerns about the handling of one of his cars, Palmer was fired - by top BMC people, like immediately. Of course Palmer was an MG enthusiast and had once held the top engineering job. Issigonis was only too happy to take full control. Then you have to laugh when you read that virtually everything Issigonis designed lost money, no matter how many of them BMC built!

I'm beginning to think Issigonis had photos of Len Lord and/or Donald Stokes with farm animals or something.

Quite a lot of information here: www.bluestreaksix.com/

Enjoy,

Tom