MGB & GT Forum
How important for cylinder heads to be tightened?
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Apr 10, 2024 10:34 AM
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10-4 cause that's all that really MATTERS. You done got "Don, Hap and Ben, on their soapboxes, and I don't have time to read all that stuff this week. Cheers.
IN ALL SUBJECTS.: For those who believe, no proof is needed. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.
"Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exists and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough"
Sir Henry Royce
co-founder of Rolls-Royce .
"I take no credit for my own, of another man's fame".
Joe Baba 2021
In reply to # 4783146 by ingoldsb
I'm glad that you take time to reflect and ponder the mysteries of life!
Quote:
I want to know where "Dianna Princes" underwear goes when she spins around and turns into Wonderwoman.Now, that is puzzling. confused smiley
I'm glad that you take time to reflect and ponder the mysteries of life!
IN ALL SUBJECTS.: For those who believe, no proof is needed. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.
"Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exists and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough"
Sir Henry Royce
co-founder of Rolls-Royce .
"I take no credit for my own, of another man's fame".
Joe Baba 2021
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Apr 10, 2024 11:19 AM
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In reply to # 4783280 by oleanderjoe
10-4 cause that's all that really MATTERS. You done got "Don, Hap and Ben, on their soapboxes, and I don't have time to read all that stuff this week. Cheers.
In reply to # 4783146 by ingoldsb
I'm glad that you take time to reflect and ponder the mysteries of life!
Quote:
I want to know where "Dianna Princes" underwear goes when she spins around and turns into Wonderwoman.Now, that is puzzling. confused smiley
I'm glad that you take time to reflect and ponder the mysteries of life!
I don't even own a soapbox, LOL, I am here to help, I leave the peeing battle to the others in fact I ignore most of the comments, I've heard it all before, and already know it, or know better
Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Website: www.acmespeedshop.com
hapwaldrop@acmespeedshop.com
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Apr 10, 2024 12:10 PM
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Nobody's mentioned Angstroms yet. Wouldn't it be cool to set the toe-in of the front wheels using a specification in Angstroms? We could also specify it as a certain (large!) multiple of a given emission line of Krypton.
Terry Ingoldsby
terry.ingoldsby@DCExperts.com
Terry Ingoldsby
terry.ingoldsby@DCExperts.com
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Apr 10, 2024 12:41 PM
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EASY tp do in Angstroms. with a couple of 2x4's and a wooden spoon, just like some people do using inches. 
IN ALL SUBJECTS.: For those who believe, no proof is needed. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.
"Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exists and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough"
Sir Henry Royce
co-founder of Rolls-Royce .
"I take no credit for my own, of another man's fame".
Joe Baba 2021
In reply to # 4783312 by ingoldsb
Nobody's mentioned Angstroms yet. Wouldn't it be cool to set the toe-in of the front wheels using a specification in Angstroms? We could also specify it as a certain (large!) multiple of a given emission line of Krypton.
IN ALL SUBJECTS.: For those who believe, no proof is needed. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.
"Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exists and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough"
Sir Henry Royce
co-founder of Rolls-Royce .
"I take no credit for my own, of another man's fame".
Joe Baba 2021
Member Services:
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Apr 10, 2024 01:25 PM
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Apr 11, 2024 03:50 AM
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Terry, my MG mech did this for me at the time a first Gold Seal engine was replacing my OEM 1972 block and the B had passed 1000kms/600 miles. If not followed he just could not assure the guarantee, given by the same organisation nowadays called Ivor Searl. By his own mistake after a severe HGF on this block by having the head overskimmed without adding a spacer or grinding the combustion chambers out I even needed a 2nd Gold Seal block in later years. And this block once more required a 1000km /600miles running in procedure and his retorque afterwards. Quite a nuisance! 
This was only needed for blocks with the traditional head gaskets, this changed to the "torque once only" procedure for the Payen. It is also the reason my I.S. block came with the explicit guideline NOT to retorque the headnuts, since the block with its Payen had undergone the single heatcycle at their plant. A Payen lookalike headgasket BTW, since it carried the AK660 number debated elsewhere as belonging to a Lucas branded production line
(The 200+ post thread of my own Payen gasket renewal after a stuck valve repair describes the SINGLE retorque done by myself explicitly)
PS In one of many tries to reduce the high oil usage and apparent coolant leakage on my 2nd Gold Seal unit I retorqued the headnuts mainly around cyl # 3 & 4 and put a three step coolant additive from Toralin in the block, which indeed stopped the coolant leakage. The other additive from Toralin I used called "compression repair" (nowadays renamed to "max compression"
equalized compression levels across all cylinders, but did not stop oil usage
PS2 In line with the above this Toralin company on which some of its products I myself and my tire shop mechanic have positive opinions about offered me a product kickback on any sale over a link made via my social media activities if I desire to exploit my "influencer" activities this way. I must say I am quite hesistant on such implicit responsibilities. Rest assured to MGE members I never coupled my advice on this forum to any financial gain.
For reference to any debate on additives I use with positive results either experienced or expected I list them hereby free or charge :
1) TSL in the engine oil for proven reduced internal friction and against cold start wear in the starting phase when oil pressure is still low
2) an expensive 3 step copper based coolant anti-leakage Toralin product, now also offered in 2 step variants for closing up smaller gaps
3) a Toralin compression repair/max compression oil additive to equalize compression levels across cylinders after higher mileages (50k miles)
4) a protecting gasoline Toralin E10 additive that claims also to protect against other nefastious side effects of newer gasmixtures in E5 shape
5) a Spanish Toralin coolant additive for protecting against rust developments and greasing the waterpump was fine, but removed from their offer
6) many years ago I used Bar leaks on a dubious radiator, which indeed closed up pinhole leakages. But when I had to remove the radiator once, leaks started all over, so I hereby advise anyone having an older radiator in situ just to have it re-cored or move to a new unit instead of using Bar Leaks.
I still have a tin of the Bar Leaks cleaning agent lying around which I will never use: once tried it destroyed my starter motor upon emptying the system
So a bit OT maybe, but as least linked to cylinder head (re)torqueing practices and related to potential oil and coolant leakages
This was only needed for blocks with the traditional head gaskets, this changed to the "torque once only" procedure for the Payen. It is also the reason my I.S. block came with the explicit guideline NOT to retorque the headnuts, since the block with its Payen had undergone the single heatcycle at their plant. A Payen lookalike headgasket BTW, since it carried the AK660 number debated elsewhere as belonging to a Lucas branded production line
(The 200+ post thread of my own Payen gasket renewal after a stuck valve repair describes the SINGLE retorque done by myself explicitly)
PS In one of many tries to reduce the high oil usage and apparent coolant leakage on my 2nd Gold Seal unit I retorqued the headnuts mainly around cyl # 3 & 4 and put a three step coolant additive from Toralin in the block, which indeed stopped the coolant leakage. The other additive from Toralin I used called "compression repair" (nowadays renamed to "max compression"
equalized compression levels across all cylinders, but did not stop oil usage
PS2 In line with the above this Toralin company on which some of its products I myself and my tire shop mechanic have positive opinions about offered me a product kickback on any sale over a link made via my social media activities if I desire to exploit my "influencer" activities this way. I must say I am quite hesistant on such implicit responsibilities. Rest assured to MGE members I never coupled my advice on this forum to any financial gain.
For reference to any debate on additives I use with positive results either experienced or expected I list them hereby free or charge
:
1) TSL in the engine oil for proven reduced internal friction and against cold start wear in the starting phase when oil pressure is still low
2) an expensive 3 step copper based coolant anti-leakage Toralin product, now also offered in 2 step variants for closing up smaller gaps
3) a Toralin compression repair/max compression oil additive to equalize compression levels across cylinders after higher mileages (50k miles)
4) a protecting gasoline Toralin E10 additive that claims also to protect against other nefastious side effects of newer gasmixtures in E5 shape
5) a Spanish Toralin coolant additive for protecting against rust developments and greasing the waterpump was fine, but removed from their offer
6) many years ago I used Bar leaks on a dubious radiator, which indeed closed up pinhole leakages. But when I had to remove the radiator once, leaks started all over, so I hereby advise anyone having an older radiator in situ just to have it re-cored or move to a new unit instead of using Bar Leaks.
I still have a tin of the Bar Leaks cleaning agent lying around which I will never use: once tried it destroyed my starter motor upon emptying the system
So a bit OT maybe, but as least linked to cylinder head (re)torqueing practices and related to potential oil and coolant leakages
In reply to # 4783360 by ingoldsb
And neither did the factory! How did all those MGBs ever survive without having their heads retorqued. Did the dealer do that? Was it done at the factory? Was it never done?
Quote:
I usually don’t have other peoples cars long enough for three heat cycles
And neither did the factory! How did all those MGBs ever survive without having their heads retorqued. Did the dealer do that? Was it done at the factory? Was it never done?
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Apr 11, 2024 04:10 AM
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Joined 12 years ago
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Mercedes and BMW (and some very rare cartypes sold at exorbant price levels) once gambled on full metrically defined tires taken over the market. But in the end this never materialized and tires remained in their strange mixed Imperial/Metric numbering scheme you described so correctly below.
Those old- and youngtimer owners that posses such vehicles have to spend a lot of money every 7-8 years or so on "metric" tires or change their wheel to the familiar mixture in numbering design. Often buying and mounting newer wheels is cheaper than buying these ever more expensive tires. Still for those fanatics on originality this is not an option, since more expensive cars often also carry specially designed alloy wheels in certain productyears!
PS On the matter of parameter definitions I do not have much more to add I'm afraid. About 70 years ago I had to master any calculation between the 4 main systems I mentioned in my earlier posts on my secondary school, including conversions between Calories, Joules and Watts. Later in my UNI years somebody (I no longer remember who) explained to me why so many conversions inbetween had a 4 pi factor inside. Forgot this intel by now..
And temperatures in a Fahrenheit scale were last used by my grandparents and never covered in any of my educational schemes (let alone Réamur)
Those old- and youngtimer owners that posses such vehicles have to spend a lot of money every 7-8 years or so on "metric" tires or change their wheel to the familiar mixture in numbering design. Often buying and mounting newer wheels is cheaper than buying these ever more expensive tires. Still for those fanatics on originality this is not an option, since more expensive cars often also carry specially designed alloy wheels in certain productyears!
PS On the matter of parameter definitions I do not have much more to add I'm afraid. About 70 years ago I had to master any calculation between the 4 main systems I mentioned in my earlier posts on my secondary school, including conversions between Calories, Joules and Watts. Later in my UNI years somebody (I no longer remember who) explained to me why so many conversions inbetween had a 4 pi factor inside. Forgot this intel by now..
And temperatures in a Fahrenheit scale were last used by my grandparents and never covered in any of my educational schemes (let alone Réamur)
In reply to # 4783277 by ingoldsb
The hilarious part of this is that, after converting tire sizes to metric, we're now left with a combination on almost all tires. I.e., the width is in mm but the inner diameter (where the wheel goes) is in inches.
In English, I believe that is the cubit! Weren't the measurements for Noah's ark given in cubits?
That is generally what happened. In the U.S. (and I presume Canada), the inch is defined as 2.54 cm. Other measurements are defined in a like way. I was once told that this led to a discrepancy between the original British inch and the newly defined inch, but the error was in the hundreds of thousandths column so almost no one noticed the change. I guess we got lucky that a two decimal value was such a close match! Wouldn't you hate it if you had to remember some weird number like 2.539162 ?
Would that all mechanics and machinists were as conversant and bi-metric as Hap!
One thing the metric system did for us was to cause definitions to be stated in terms of reproducible physical phenomena. Previously there were standard bars (for length) and standard weights and so forth. These would be reproduced as accurately as possible - but just copying the original held the possibility of altering it. I.e., if you measure the bar's length with calipers you might distort it. Now, anyone with the proper equipment can determine what a unit is without looking at any other example.
Quote:
elbow to hand was once called an "el" for measuring cloth
In English, I believe that is the cubit! Weren't the measurements for Noah's ark given in cubits?
Quote:
PS2 I find Australia interesting, since over there they redefined their Imperial heritage from Britain in Metric units that are close enough in size
The inch stays what it was for them, but is less and less used because of this redefinition of sizes in practical day to day mechanical activities
The inch stays what it was for them, but is less and less used because of this redefinition of sizes in practical day to day mechanical activities
That is generally what happened. In the U.S. (and I presume Canada), the inch is defined as 2.54 cm. Other measurements are defined in a like way. I was once told that this led to a discrepancy between the original British inch and the newly defined inch, but the error was in the hundreds of thousandths column so almost no one noticed the change. I guess we got lucky that a two decimal value was such a close match! Wouldn't you hate it if you had to remember some weird number like 2.539162 ?
Would that all mechanics and machinists were as conversant and bi-metric as Hap!
One thing the metric system did for us was to cause definitions to be stated in terms of reproducible physical phenomena. Previously there were standard bars (for length) and standard weights and so forth. These would be reproduced as accurately as possible - but just copying the original held the possibility of altering it. I.e., if you measure the bar's length with calipers you might distort it. Now, anyone with the proper equipment can determine what a unit is without looking at any other example.
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Apr 11, 2024 07:38 AM
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You know, the OP of this thread was Gary’s last post on this site anywhere.
Hmm…..
• The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
• To the intelligent person, life appears infinitely mysterious, but the stupid have an answer for everything.
First rule of forum debate:
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Hmm…..
• To the intelligent person, life appears infinitely mysterious, but the stupid have an answer for everything.
First rule of forum debate:
• My opinion becomes truth if I can find one other person, on the Internet with the same opinion. It is 'chiselled in stone" if I find two!
• War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.
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Apr 11, 2024 08:20 AM
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Apr 11, 2024 10:22 AM
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In reply to # 4783360 by ingoldsb
And neither did the factory! How did all those MGBs ever survive without having their heads retorqued. Did the dealer do that? Was it done at the factory? Was it never done?
Quote:
I usually don’t have other peoples cars long enough for three heat cycles
And neither did the factory! How did all those MGBs ever survive without having their heads retorqued. Did the dealer do that? Was it done at the factory? Was it never done?
That was all done in the engine test bed, in a different plant, not on the assembly line. "the factory" did not build the engines, Morris did. They don't call them assembly plants for nothing, they don't build car parts, they assemble finish parts to assemble a car.
Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Website: www.acmespeedshop.com
hapwaldrop@acmespeedshop.com
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-04-11 10:28 AM by Speedracer.
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Apr 11, 2024 10:33 AM
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Apr 11, 2024 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Calories
Don - you forgot to mention Calories is different than calories (note the capital C). IIRC "Calories" is actually kilocalories - the webs we weave.
Hap - thanks for that bit of info. So, Morris built the engines, presumably ran them up to temperature, then re-torqued the head bolts.
P.S. We're happy to go on with or without Gary!
This was all in fun!
Terry Ingoldsby
terry.ingoldsby@DCExperts.com
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