MG Engine Swaps Forum

A friend has an older Buick with a 215, he is worried about parts and rebuild costs, what do you all think/ Thanks joe

Got a 215 with low miles from an MGB project, block and low end with pistons neoprene front and rear seals is good. Rover 3.5 heads need rebuilt, but no cracks. Heres a pic as it sits. The tranny is gone. PM me for details.

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"Not all who wander are lost." -J.R.R. Tolkien

Your friend should relax and dive in. He'll pay exactly the same for machine work as he'd pay for any other American V8. He shouldn't pay any premium at all on common rebuild parts like bearings, gaskets, lifters, valves, etc. Unfortunately, piston options are limited but the available ones aren't particularly expensive. There are at least a dozen affordable camshafts to choose between. Parts commonality with Buick V6 helps to keep costs within reason. For example, the Buick V6 "metric" oil pump will bolt right on to a 215. I'd recommend swapping to a V6 timing cover to get a neoprene front seal. I'd also recommend buying a kit to replace the 215's original (rope type) rear main seal with a neoprene one. Your friend should consider the very cool features he gets as standard equipment: aluminum block, aluminum cylinder heads, and an intake manifold that's ready for a 4-barrel carburetor to bolt right on. If he had to pay for those separately...

Interesting the difference in price between US and Aus. I had a similar dilemma do I buy a Rover 4.6 from say a Land Rover and have it torn down (well I could do that) and rebuilt including top hats. Assuming I needed the whole shebang done my ballpark quote was $6/7k (plus motor). I figured buying my worked 5 litre for $10k was a safer bet. Now I know you'll be horrified at those figures but that's just what machining costs here.

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Mk1: CKD 11/66 first registered 8/5/67; owned since 3/77. 18GB +40 balanced. Peter Burgess BVFR head. Piper 285. 123. FidanzaFW. 4synch c/r box. Superpro. Nut and bolt rebuild 2010 - 2015. Tartan Red.

GT: 12/78. VW Golf guards, flush fit front and rear valances, frenched indicators, Mk1 rear lights - LED lights. 'Worked' Rover V8, Monsoon ECU for EFI. Commodore VSV8 GM4L60E, Lokar tiptronic shifter & Quick4 controller. Vintage Air A/C. FC IFS. CCE 4 link rear. Salisbury with Quaife. Jaguar Storm.

The common part costs will be a little higher than some other very common engines like the SBC and 302 Ford. Expect about a 25% premium and you'll be OK. Aftermarket heads and other more uncommon parts are pricey though. No need to change the front cover or do machine work to get neoprene main seals. TAPerformance is a good parts source. Pay great attention to bearing clearances and oiling.

Jim

Hey guys, thanks for the help on this I will pass it on. joe

Bellhousing, flywheel, & hydraulic throwout bearing do add up in a hurry, but clutch/pressure plate is cheap. Don't forget the mini-starter.


IF it's a 4bbl 215.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-27 09:43 AM by V8MGBV8.

I think the smart thing to do with that Buick Special is find a running 350 and drop in it.

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-27 11:21 AM by Jim Blackwood.

He means Buick 350.

A running complete 2000ish Camaro with an LS1 and a T56 is around $5K to $6K. Pull it out and drop it in. Everything you would want to do to the Rover engine is already done. Serpentine belts, tunable FI, massive power, aluminum block and heads, 6 speed tranny, cheap easy to find parts, assortment of swap headers, etc. check, check, check. Just finishing up my first LS install. In this case its a 2010 LS3 making close to 500 HP. Even with a garage full of Rover and Buick engines, and a shelf full of the hard to find pieces, I just can't justify throwing money at the little engine ever again. Found a running crunched 2003 Land Rover with a 4.6 for $300 this past weekend. Passed it on to a friend for his TR8.

I'm sort of inclined to agree... but there are reasons not to. Usually having to do with not having the skills, money, or wanting to keep things more or less the way they are.

Now if those things apply, the 350 Buick looks real good. Why? It's in the same engine family (SBB), it's easy, proven, cheap, and the engines are common as dirt. With a bone stock 350 the Special will be a pleasure to drive as well and performance will be excellent. Most importantly, everything fits. Plus, bellhousings, flywheels and TOB are common and cheap, (maybe a tenth of what they cost for the 215) and the 2004r bolts right up. Weight increase is approx 150 lbs for the iron motor, not a real big deal but can be taken care of in several ways. The boys over on the V8Buick forum in the SBB area can help with this.

Jim

Barrie mentioned "including top hats" - but that's not relevant to Buick 215. Buick's liners were cast in place. They'll never, ever, ever shift.

Jim wrote: "Aftermarket heads and other more uncommon parts are pricey though." TA heads are insanely expensive - but they're not relevant unless you're looking for 300+ hp. On the other hand, you can bolt Rover 4.0/4.6 heads onto a Buick 215 to get bigger valves and ports AND smaller combustion chambers for a higher compression ratio. Typical price for a set of Buick 300 heads is ~$150-200. (That's cheap!)

Carl wrote: "Bellhousing, flywheel, & hydraulic throwout bearing (HTOB) do add up in a hurry, but clutch/pressure plate is cheap. Don't forget the mini-starter." Firstly, you don't need either a HTOB or a mini starter. (I don't have or recommend either!) Secondly, the cost for a HTOB or for a mini starter is pretty much similar between Buick 215 and other swap candidates. So... it's just the bellhousing and flywheel that you need to call D&D to price out. Those two parts won't break your bank. I think they get about $260 for the bellhousing, don't they? (That's cheap too. Maybe just two or three times the cost of a used bellhousing for a Buick 350. No?)

Carl wrote: "IF it's a 4bbl 215." I've got one for you if you want it. $150. Todd would probably sell one cheaper...

About LS engines, Todd wrote: "assortment of swap headers". I call BS on that one! There is no such thing as an LS header that will bolt into an MGB without severe modification of either the headers or the inner wings. Not to mention that you'll have to make your own motor mounts. Todd mentioned the T56 six-speed twice - but it's a big, heavy disadvantage. Literally. You couldn't give me a T56. Then Todd wrote: "Found a running crunched 2003 Land Rover with a 4.6 for $300 this past weekend. Passed it on to a friend for his TR8." $300 for a running, classic, all-aluminum V8? Hello!?! I'll take one!

About the Buick 350, Jim wrote: "the engines are common as dirt". Is that supposed to be a selling point? An engine that makes people go "ho hum"? Almost as common as a Chevy, right? Jim, you're talking about an engine that came stock with an iron intake manifold! There's nothing remotely sexy about that, is there? So, you have to buy MORE shiny, lightweight parts to get back toward what the Buick 215 starts with. And you'll never get there. Or even close. Because in the end, the 215 has soul and history on its side. Examples: GM's "215" aluminum V8 is the ONLY stock-block V8 to have raced in both the Indy 500 and in Formula One. It's also the only stock-block V8 to have won a Formula One championship.

Lets clarify some of my statements about the LS, and I think you are a little light on your cost projections for 215 parts. My complete as removed from the Camaro package including engine, tranny, clutch components, all the wiring, and all the accessories came in around 640 pounds. Some of that weight will be reduced. Mine is the LS3 that in stock form makes 426HP. For a tranny, you either need to buy a $2500 aftermarket 5 speed that weighs around 80 pounds or you can live with a 6 speed Tremec. The Tremec TR6060 that came in mine is rated at 600 ft/pounds and weighs a hefty 143 pounds. I have heard that the earlier T56 weighs in around 128 pounds. As far as the headers go, there are a million swap headers out there. I guarantee there is a set that will fit, you just need to be the first one to figure out which one and then everyone can follow your lead. We already know of a couple that will drop straight into a TR7/8 with no mods and gives you a 3" exhaust. There are also some very slick swap engine mounts out there. Yes you will have to do some fabrication, but if that scares you, pay someone. After looking at the complete picture, I have come to the conclusion that you can't beat the LS engine for swaps. My initial buy in for a salvage 2010 Camaro with 11,097 miles, and mods was $9300. Add to that so far the $250 for headers(I went with the expensive ones). Next up radiator, driveshaft, and reverse hung Tilton pedals and masters. Not sure how much I can recoup selling off Camaro parts, but I would think 3 to 4K is not unreasonable. When all is said and done, I will have close to 500 hp and a tranny that can handle it for less than what it would cost to put together a 300 hp Rover. If you want to go get ice cream and sit beside your car at British car festivals, go for the Rover. Everybody that looks at your car will give you lots of praise. If you want to go fast, real fast! then go get a LS engine. As far as the Rover engines around here, there are a ton of 15 year old Rovers on craigslist. There are plateless ones sitting in about 1 out of every 100 driveways. The junkyards all have several each. Rich people that live by the ocean don't want 15 year old Rovers, they want the newest shiny piece of art for their driveway so they can show off to the neighbors. Hence an overabundance of cheap Land Rovers. My wife's daily is a near mint 2000 Range Rover HSE 4.6. Black on black with 137,000 miles. It cost me $1000, and the guy would have gone lower if I had haggled. It was on CL for 3 weeks at that price and I was the only one to call. He was glad to see it out of his driveway. He also had a Jag XKR, a Lexus ISF, a big Mercedes, and an Audi SUV. Single guy, big house, on the water. There is a running 2006 LR3 that needs exhaust work down the street for sale for $1200, but thats doesn't have a Rover engine. Might be a nice first car for my 16 year old, but she has her heart set on a TR8.. red... with a tan canvas top.

GUYS! The OP's buddy wants to rebuild the motor that's in a BUICK SPECIAL! Did he ever say he was putting it in an MGB? I don't think so.

Now if he is, then I agree with everything you say and further state that there is no way in the world I would consider trying to put a 350 Buick in an MGB. Or another 340 for that matter. I'd just as soon do another 455. The 300 is the best choice in my opinion, and the LS is coming on strong. But isn't there yet.

For the Buick Special, the 350 is the obvious choice. The weight is manageable, the heads are fantastic compared to anything available for the 215 short of TA, you get another 135 cubic inches (2.2 L) and in that car it would be anything but a ho hum engine.

Even the cast iron exhaust manifolds (350) will work. Heck, the motor mounts probably will too. It seems like a pretty obvious choice to me.

Jim