MG Midget Forum

Trevor,

So, the attached picture suggests how easy it would be to design an output adapter that would bolt right onto an M45; the intake's easy, too, judging from Podifold's piece and the one pictured here. I actually like this sort of setup more than Podifold, since it puts the blower on its side and lower. Maybe no bonnet bulge!

As Kurt suggested, one would just configure the outlet so it aimed downward at the right angle to get the intercooler ducting to the valance under the radiator. As for the manifold, I would just hook up to a $55 Mini Sport USA manifold like the more expensive Minispares one I bought (oops). Carb or TB, take your pick.

Honestly, this doesn't look too daunting to me. When I have two arms again, I'll go grab a pull-n-pay M45 and see what I can work up.

Joel



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-12-28 10:35 PM by Yankeedriver.

Well, Trevor has got me back to thinking about a blow through system with parts from a MG Metro turbo system. The Aisin supercharger is tiny and with a blow through I could probably fit a inter-cooler, the Metro carb intake, the Metro fuel pressure regulator and that would be good enough. The smaller compressors tend to heat the air more anyway. If I were actually computer literate a fuel injection system with a throttle position sensor would be nice and controlling the ignition at the same time. But, since I don't know how to do that.....

Kurt.

Now we're talkin'!

Joel,
I was thinking what you were thinking after looking at some photos. It might be a not too difficult project to cobble up our own design. I was even considering a small blow-through modded 500cfm, or less if I can find one, 4 barrel on a suck through system (running maybe 10-12lbs of boost). I'm building a 6-71 blown BBC at the moment too, so that's where that thought process came from.
Simple, effective cheap...

But ultimately, I'm up for anything... clean slate, if you will.

I was thinking of trying some crude design drawings, trying to do a blow through first, then a sucker. Anyone else wanna try?

Kurt - so, there's is the benefit of my finishing the DIY 'no tune' EFI setup I was halfway through bolting on when ended up in the hospital (Midget's fine; it was another car that got totaled). If it doesn't work, I'll be swapping out the GM ECU I'm betting will run a stock 1275 for a Megasquirt II (all sensors are compatible) and drawing my own maps. There are lots of guys who I believe have maps for 1275s in various states of tune, so I should be in the zone with a naturally aspirated 1275 fairly quickly.

Then, it shouldn't be overly difficult to get static advance and useful ignition curve data from people successfully running superchargers, like Trevor. From there, it'd be just a matter of tweaking the N/A maps to work with a given supercharger setup.

So, you could run a carb to start with, and whenever I can use both arms and play some catch up, I'll happily share my map with you.

Joel

Shawn,

Yes - I'm a little afraid the Podifold--if it becomes available--may put the blower too high to clear the bonnet. If it's doesn't, for $550 that's the way to go. If it does, I wouldn't mind a power bulge, but I'd rather avoid it if I can. Given that the blower can go on either side, it seems to me that putting it above the alternator on its side, a la the photo I provided above, would make it fairly easy to plumb into the mini cooper single carb manifold pictured in the photo I posted earlier, of my half-finished DIY EFI system.

Really, this doesn't look that tough, and I've now got an outlet design visualized that would be easy to cut via CNC, and which would incorporate a mount that uses the existing generator/alternator mounting holes. it would direct the air forward and down, as Kurt suggested, to an intercooler behind the lower valance--though you'd have to be willing to make a hole for air like the later models (only larger, in my view). I was going to do that anyway, per Larry's (Ice) example.

I don't know what mine would cost, but I would imagine less than $500. Anyway, I'll be cutting one set for myself, that's for sure. What fun!

Joel

Joel, any assistance I can get concerning computer stuff is much appreciated. I would like the ability to adjust the ignition with a crank fire set up as well since with a throttle position sensor on the throttle shaft or air intake butterfly one can get back the equivalent of a vacuum advance....electronically controlled. Great improvement to fuel economy. Of course if one is going to do all that you may as well swap in a later engine that is already crank fire and fuel injected.

I have a rebuilt Datsun A14 and 5 speed ready to go in a 64 Sprite that was going to get the Aisin blower but too any other projects to get it done right now anyway.

Kurt.

Take it easy and heal up, Joel!!

Kurt.

Thanks, man. I'm trying!

My existing GM-Hitachi hybrid system uses the basic array of sensors that will also work with Megasquirt: MAP, TPS, intake air temp, water temp, O2 and VSS (optional, attaches to the speedo cable), as well as an IAC for seamless warmups. It won't have a crank-fired position sensor but uses a converted Lucas distributor. Rick Patton shows how to do this on his website, Patton Machine, and sells a kit for $150 that makes it dead simple. Or, you can DIY for $50 with Chrysler and Toyota parts. His works really well, though.

Megasquirt will use either a distributor-fired or a crank-fired system, I believe. So, I was planning on using the former, easier route at first, and switching to the latter whenever I get around to it. I see that Moss includes an aluminum pulley to spin the serpentine belt in their kit. If they'll sell a replacement outside the kit, it could easily be notched to generate ignition pulses.

Joel

Wow, you are up on this stuff! Very interesting info there. I do know that the young hot rodders, who their are darn few of, seem to be up on all this electronically controlled stuff....me, I can turn on the computer and type...that's about it!

Kurt.

About 7-8 years ago there was a guy named Arnold Herrman (sp?) that cobbled together an M45 SC on the alternator side of the A-series and had it blow through a HIF44. He later changed to a fuel injection system. It wasn't beautiful work, but he claimed that it worked well. It also included a supercharger. He posted the stuff on the MGCARS BBS. I think he was in the Netherlands.

Ah ha! Found the link:
http://www.kmnet.demon.co.uk/arnold/

Kurt - thanks for that, but I feel like a babe in the woods. There is so much to learn.

Trevor - Wow, thanks! This is exactly what I was envisioning--but with much respect to Arnold for his achievement, something a bit less cluttered. Amazingly, the outlet adapter configuration is virtually identical to what I was thinking about--though mine would be CNC machined, and point forward and angle down to an intercooler, with the return coming back either right of the radiator or through the fender, where my cold air inlet ducting now sits.

Hmmm... could his outlet be a modified sawdust extractor from a big table something...? If something pre-existing like that would work, it would cut the cost even more. Though a nifty CNC kit could include: inlet and outlet adapters; mounting brackets; and belt tensioner--but as to the latter, there has got to be some OEM item that would bolt to the front bracket.

He appears to be using the Mercedes 230 version of the M45, with those weird dual intakes. I think but am not sure that one of them is for the recirculation/dump valve; the other for the intake from the throttle body or air cleaner if you were running a push-through carb. Here is a link: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/sale-wanted-trade-giveaway/1568779-eaton-m45-supercharger.html Because of the angle of the inlets, the Mercedes version might actually be better--though I'd put the air filter elsewhere.

He seems to have put a dump valve in the outlet stream, rather than using the recirculation inlet port--which it looks like he uses to bolt on the aft mount. What fun to study these pics after returning from the 'salt mines' this evening! This is like Christmas all over again, Trevor!

I did find your contributions to a 2012 string on your Moss-based setup. I wonder if you get a moment if you could relate the specs for the supercharger-specific APT cam you had built. Also useful would be any internal mods you did--different pistons, rod or crank stuff, updated oil pump... and...?

The reason I ask is that it sounds like folks like Kurt, Shawn and I would probably do what you did--start out on the existing stock engine with a very gentle pulley. Then swap it out for a smaller one (I assume smaller means more boost) whenever we had time for a rebuild.

Joel

Joel, I don't know much as far as programming but I do know welding and machine work. Modifying with cut and weld is no big deal to me. My Aisin is small but I would likely find a place that is remote to the intake and plumb through an intercooler of some sort to the carb and manifold. A flex coupling and mounted ahead of the radiator wouldn't be impossible.

Kurt.

Here's a nifty instructional on oil changes for the mini M45, others evidently similar: https://wiki.bentleypublishers.com/display/tech/2002-2006+MINI+Cooper+S+Supercharger+Oil+Service

...and, oh yeah! Eaton offers clutched (12v) versions... "Dear, whatever you do, don't hit the little red button!" http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Vehicle/Superchargers/clutched-supercharger/index.htm

"The clutched Supercharger only engages when additional boost and vehicle performance is needed. Applying a clutched supercharger on a 4-cylinder engine enables the power of a naturally aspirated 6-cylinder engine when the supercharger is engaged while maintaining the excellent fuel economy of a naturally aspirated 4-cylinder engine when boost is not needed and the supercharger is decoupled."

The specs indicate that the added drag when the blower is idling is extremely low, for excellent fuel economy, and that the engagement is seamless and instantaneous:

Operating Voltage Range: 9 – 14 V
Maximum Clutch Engagement Speed: 9000 rpm
Number of Engagements: 1 million
Clutch Torque Rating: up to 80 Nm
Engagement Time: 100 – 350 ms
Drag Loss When Disengaged: <100W

The cool thing about this option is that the added stress on a stock 1275 when puttering through stop-and-go traffic, or low-speed cruising on surface streets, would be eliminated.

I have asked them whether they sell a clutch for the M45, or for other small capacity blowers, and if so for literature and an application to sell them as a dealer.

So, the contemplated DIY conversion kit (haven't figured out which configuration of the M45 is best) might consist of:

1) CNC machined outlet adapter (it appears various molded inlets available from Eaton and from the respective OEM donor cars - but the Mercedes 230 version has a flanged round inlet that might accommodate a silicone snorkel tube);

2) water pump blanking plate--only if Mini M45 used, as Mercedes doesn't need it;

3) mounting brackets - stamped steel might be cheapest - Kurt, maybe with your metal fabrication ability, you and I can work on a prototype. There is a plant in Albuquerque I used to work at, and which has huge stamping machines that bang out parts for busses, that could churn out a run of these for very little money;

4) crank pulley - Moss sells a replacement aluminum pulley for their supercharger setup with speedi sleeve for $200... wow. I will talk to my CNC shop about production costs of a pulley, and if substantially cheaper, I'd go ahead and notch it for crank-fired ignition for those so inclined. The additional operation would increase the cost per part very little, probably less than adding anodization, which I consider needless on a crank pulley;

5) [for injected version] CNC machined, dual injector adapter to bolt onto a $50 Mini Spares/Mini Sport single carb manifold, and which connects silicone snorkel tube from intercooler (this should be simple to configure so as to use an existing, two-injector aftermarket aluminum fuel rail);

5.5) [for carb version] CNC machined adapter to connect silicone snorkel tube to carb;

6) [optional] electronic clutch & engagement switch (what fun figuring out the type of switch to use!).

This kit would be pretty cheap, and would enable users to mount a used/pull-n-pay M45. All they'd have to do is source the blower, and the parts list would point to the other needed stuff. Man, I hope Eaton sells a clutch that will fit the M45! With a gentle pulley, this might be a bona fide 'seat of the pants' power increase for stock engines, and all one need do for 'freight train' output like Trevor's, is get a bigger pulley whenever they have time and money to fortify their bottom end.

Joel



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 2016-12-31 11:45 AM by Yankeedriver.

So, here are better pics of the Salon Motorsport adapters for the Mini M45. The kit is for the Miata. These are useful for a couple of reasons. First, they suggest how to make the blower work in an in-line configuration, as Trevor wondered aloud earlier. Second, they suggest a method of including the OEM Mini M45 recirculation valve for excess pressure--really, quite similar to what Podifold does.

I have asked them what a set of these would cost (I think I saw $550 or something in the earlier post--but that could include a juicy dealer markup), because it's at least possible that they could work on an alternator-side Spridget setup. The air filter, with the outlet/inlet side turned toward the lefthand wing/fender, would be right where I locate it in my existing DIY EFI system (see home page of my website for photo)--but on the righthand side of course. I duct cool air up through the fender to simply blow on the K&N air filter, but one could always make a sheet metal panel that simply isolates the filter from the engine compartment and requires it to draw from up front.

At any rate, if the Salon pieces would work on a Spridget and aren't too costly, the remainder of the kit need only consist of the mounting brackets and carb or injector adapter, crank pulley, and optional clutch if that's available for the smaller blowers. Even if they do work, however, it might be cool to have an outlet adapter with just the right angle for a Spridget-specific intercooler setup, and perhaps that mounts the recirc valve remotely to keep things less cluttered near the spark plug/oil dipstick side of the engine...

Joel



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-12-31 11:49 AM by Yankeedriver.