MGExp

T-Series & Prewar Forum

OEM engine bolts

Moss Motors
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor

Hawkmonster Avatar
Hawkmonster Joe Policastro
Flagstaff, AZ, USA   USA
Disclaimer/purpose. First let me say I am just seeking information and I am not trying to get into a fight or demean any product.

Background.

I am currently rebuilding two TD engines and the necessary machine shop and required new parts costs are really starting to add up on my car hobby budget.

I have been restoring British and German sports cars as a hobby since the 70's. In the past when rebuilding the engines I have used NEW factory type style bolts and nuts for the engine parts that are under stress like head bolts, etc. In addition I have always made sure that the head is machined level or replaced warped aluminum heads and used new head gaskets. Consequently, I have never experienced a head gasket failure but that may just mean I have been lucky or do not abuse them like driving them overheating, running low on oil, not doing preventive maintenance, etc.

In regards to the T series, I totally accept and under stand the need to replace things like the old style pinch bolts with modern ones because of the torgue factor and understand improvements like six vane water pumps, etc. These type of improvements have a proven basis for our engines.

Question. For our stock engines is the difference in price $390 vs $42 between new ARP and new OEM style head bolts worth it? In my case that is $800 vs $80.

Thanks

Joe

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
LaVerne Avatar
LaVerne LaVerne Downey
Fruita, CO, USA   USA
1954 MG TF "Green Hornet"
1969 MG MGB
1979 Triumph TR8 "Wedgie"
Whos' charging $390.00 for a set of head bolts? Quite a bit less from Tom and worth every penny.


http://mgtrepair.net/Head.html

The replacement oe type I purchased from the big vendor some years ago were crap...plain and simple.

Hawkmonster Avatar
Hawkmonster Joe Policastro
Flagstaff, AZ, USA   USA
Sorry LaVerne tried to edit my first input.

It should have read " Head studs and nuts and MAIN CAP STUDS for $390. Sorry for this error.

Joe

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
Hawkmonster Avatar
Hawkmonster Joe Policastro
Flagstaff, AZ, USA   USA
Can you be more specific? What made them crap? Threads incorrect, hardness value of the steel, appearance, etc?

LaVerne Avatar
LaVerne LaVerne Downey
Fruita, CO, USA   USA
1954 MG TF "Green Hornet"
1969 MG MGB
1979 Triumph TR8 "Wedgie"
You can't really tell alot by this picture Joe other than the corrosion on the Big vendor bolt, but the threads are also stretched which helped lead to the head gasket failure and it was just about all of the bolts. The rod bolts I did not inspect that close but I didn't see any major issue with them but considering some of the other offerings they sent, to me it was well worth investing in some quality all be it at a little more cost. This flywheel bolt is another example.


Attachments:
IMG_8314.JPG    58.1 KB
IMG_8314.JPG

IMG_8803.JPG    26.8 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
IMG_8806.JPG    31.9 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
Hawkmonster Avatar
Hawkmonster Joe Policastro
Flagstaff, AZ, USA   USA
Thanks good info.

In the first picture.Did the head bolt with the nut come out of the engine you were repairing? Had you replaced that bolt at some point or did the engine come to you with that bolt in it. Was the bolt on the right the one you received from the normal supplier?

In the third picture where did you get the bolts to replace those taken out?

In the second picture I have seen that stretch often from either to much torque or from a person reusing the same bolt when replacing the head or a combo of both. Translation and thinking. Old bolt needs more torque.

Just yesterday I was helping a friend torgue a nut to 140 lbs and noticed it seemed it took rather excessive force to me. Loosened the nut and used my torgue wrench and it went smooth and with about the force I expected. He had a no name brand from a suspect country and I suspected it was poorly calibrated from the manufacturer or the angle I used was better then his and allowed better leverage which made it seem like I was using less force.

Joe

LaVerne Avatar
LaVerne LaVerne Downey
Fruita, CO, USA   USA
1954 MG TF "Green Hornet"
1969 MG MGB
1979 Triumph TR8 "Wedgie"
The head bolt came from my engine when I recently took it apart. It was purchased new in 2004. The APR bolt next to it came from Tom. The flywheel bolts came from the big supplier...new also in 2004 and torqued per spec. The replacement also came from them and although clearly a little different I'm not that thrilled with it...that said the bulk of the torque is held with the pins so thats what is there...I would have paid more money for better quality.

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
Steve S Avatar
Abingdon West, Southern California, USA   USA
On a stock engine, the stock hardware is fine. That said, if you're buying new stock-type studs and bolts then there is the question of whether or not they are made to OEM standards. A lot of people uprate to ARP or similar even on a stock engine, just to avoid the possibility of unknowingly getting sub-standard hardware. I have an engine here running 9.1 compression and driven hard, using OEM head studs and new Moss big and small end bolts. At last rebuild there was no sign of stretching or issues with the threads. There is nothing wrong with buying stronger hardware of course, but if you're after concourse points then be aware that the ARP head studs do look very different.

plus4moggie Tom Lange
Bar Harbor, ME, USA   USA
Joe - I can confidently say that the parts from the usual suppliers are probably OK to use on a stock engine. And I mean OK - no more. I have spoken to someone who was at a large MG supplier once in their shop area, and watched them use the lathe to cut head nuts off hex bar stock. To me that indicates that the head nuts are soft, and will not retain or permit accurate head torque. Many of the parts we buy come from China, India or other countries where production standards are not always adhered to, and where speed is more important than quality or attention to detail. And remember that the big guys buy in thousands quantities, and go for the lowest cost they can find. IF we had a source for original MOWOG parts I would unhesitatingly recommend them - but we don't. Everything we buy today is aftermarket, and you must consider the source.

I make no bones about the fact that my head studs and main studs are simply the best you can buy, made by the BEST manufacturer, out of the best materials, with the best features, and with rolled threads. That's important, because rolled threads have MUCH greater accuracy and strength than cut threads. My studs are heat treated, then shot peened, and are unconditionally guaranteed. They are also more expensive, because they are made to my proprietary designs, at considerable cost to me.

As I said, I suspect that a new head stud from one of the usual sources will probably be OK in a stock engine. But how many heads and blocks have been skimmed, larger valves added, engines overbored, and more aggressive cams added, with the goal of increased HP? Most engines have had at least one of those things changed, which increases the stresses on critical fasteners like rod bolts, pinch bolts, head studs and nuts, and main studs and nuts.

I have received orders from people who said thay bought the usual head studs, only to find that the studs felt "stretchy," that they never really felt that the proper torque was being applied. I have also received orders from people who complained to me that they repeatedly blew head gaskets with the stock-type studs, but who stopped blowing gaskets when they bought my head studs. I can point you to dozens and dozens of customers - including many racers like Manley Ford - who feel that my head studs go further in holding their engines together.

I leave you with this - if you are paying $7.93 for a head stud, what did it cost the seller - $4? Less? Is that a part you are prepared to have in a critical place? IF it failed, what would you pay (yourself or a shop) to remove the bonnet, remove the manifolds, remove the rocker gear, and thermostat parts, remove the head, check the head and block for flatness, replace the studs, replace the head gasket, re-install and re-torque the head, rocker gear and manifolds, re-adjust the valves, re-install the thermostat, re-fill with coolant, etc. etc. I would rather do it once and never have to think about it again.

Good question!

Tom Lange
MGT Repair

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
Hawkmonster Avatar
Hawkmonster Joe Policastro
Flagstaff, AZ, USA   USA
Thanks Tom. Great input. Well supported and extremely well delivered. Appreciate you input.

Joe

Steve S Avatar
Abingdon West, Southern California, USA   USA
Agree fully with Tom. And if I'm reading correctly Tom, are you offering OEM type head studs? Or is it the ARP studs you're referring to? If OEM type then it's truly a no-brainer for any type of build including bone stock. A known quality is better than saving a buck or two on such a critical fastener.

plus4moggie Tom Lange
Bar Harbor, ME, USA   USA
Friends - whenb we thought about making high quality head studs we debated back and forth whethert to make a high-quality OEM duplicate stud, or whether to think about the typical problems one encounters with old studs, and try to improve on them. We chose the latter, since the cost was nearly the same.

We added 1/4" of thread to the stud to compensate for heads that have been skimmed more than desirable, and where the stock stud would literally run out of threads without a washer. NOTE: NOT a quarter of an inch more overall length, but a quarter of an inch more thread to accommodate a thinner head.

Also, 86% of all head studs removed have, at some point in their lifetime, been removed with pliers or a pipe-wrench, since they were so baked in place that not even double-nutting worked. The studs suffered damage that weakened the shafts, and made reliable and consistent torque impossible. In addition, corrosion weakened the shaft of the original, untreated stud.

To fix this we added an internal hex to the end of the stud, so that the proper torque could be applied. This means that the shaft does not need to be touched with pliers or wrench. Finally, the MGT studs are black oxide treated, to reduce any corrosion possibility.

Even though original nuts look, well, original, they are not necessarily good. Screw down an original nut on a new stud, and feel for ANY binding. If so, the nut is stretched, and should be replaced. Steve is right that my studs do look a bit different than stock, but mine are about 10x stronger, and are designed for longevity.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

To add your reply, or post your own questions




Registration is FREE and takes less than a minute!


Having trouble posting or changing forum settings?
Read the Forum Help (FAQ) or contact the webmaster





Join The Club

Sign in to ask questions, share photos, and access all website features

Your Cars

1978 MG MGB MkIV

Text Size

Larger Smaller
Reset Save

Sponsor Links