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Anything new post Burgess in heads and pistons?

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gray Graham Moore
CAMBRIDGE, CAMBRIDGE, UK   GBR
Scott

you wrote "Yes I have Vizard's book on the B series and used to have his A series book"

what is the title of his B series book. cannot find one.

G

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tvrgeek Avatar
tvrgeek Silver Member Scott S
Hillsborough, North Carolinia, USA   USA
1965 MG MGB
My mistake. He only did the A series ( and mentioned how different the B was) as well as all his books on BB Chevy. My B series is the Burgess book.



Cogito ergo sum periculoso

tvrgeek Avatar
tvrgeek Silver Member Scott S
Hillsborough, North Carolinia, USA   USA
1965 MG MGB
What are the thoughts on Extrude Hone? Again, it was a big deal a few years back. Best reserved for de-burring manifolds?



Cogito ergo sum periculoso

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Speedracer Avatar
Speedracer Platinum Member Hap Waldrop
Greenville, SC, USA   USA
1967 MG MGB Racecar "The Biscuit"
In reply to # 3717739 by tvrgeek What are the thoughts on Extrude Hone? Again, it was a big deal a few years back. Best reserved for de-burring manifolds?

You never hear of it these days, more or less a passing phase, yes, and more used on items that had short and straight runners.



Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Website: www.acmespeedshop.com
hapwaldrop@acmespeedshop.com


Member Services:
MG/ Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines - Cylinder Head Porting - Modified SU HS Carbs - DIY Engine Rebuild Kits With Free Tech Advice - VTO alloy wheels for British Sport Cars, and others
tvrgeek Avatar
tvrgeek Silver Member Scott S
Hillsborough, North Carolinia, USA   USA
1965 MG MGB
Thought it might be. I know they were expensive especially if they did not already have manifolds made for the part. We don't have much of a problem with our intakes. Not too hard to flap wheel the burrs in the exhaust. I did that on several TR-6 manifolds.



Cogito ergo sum periculoso

Speedracer Avatar
Speedracer Platinum Member Hap Waldrop
Greenville, SC, USA   USA
1967 MG MGB Racecar "The Biscuit"
On the subject of Vizard. a couple of years back they had the BMTA conference in Charlotte, David Anton (APT) and myself sort of loosely made plans for me to drive up and we have dinner together. Well I lost track of the date, and one morning I checked my voicemail, and had a message from David Anton from early in the morning the day before where he was inviting me up to have dinner with him and Vizard, I was crushed I had missed the voicemail, a once in a lifetime occasion. Also for you that have Vizard's third and final edition to his A series book ( and that's a story within itself) notice he dedicated the book to Dave Tabor, which was probably responsible for more BMC national championships than everyone else combined, that was nice tribute to wonderfully talented man who unfortunately did not live long enough to be well known on the internet.



Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Website: www.acmespeedshop.com
hapwaldrop@acmespeedshop.com


Member Services:
MG/ Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines - Cylinder Head Porting - Modified SU HS Carbs - DIY Engine Rebuild Kits With Free Tech Advice - VTO alloy wheels for British Sport Cars, and others
riley1489 Avatar
riley1489 Gold Member Bruce H
Great White North, QC, Canada   CAN
1953 Jaguar XK120
1959 Riley 1.5 "King George"
1973 MG MGB
Scott
Drop your ignition projects and do some cylinder head work.

Lots to be gained by improving the, suck, squish, (bang) & blow cycles.

I dabble with these heads for fun. My latest 5 port alloy iteration.

B



Check your ego Amigo!


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tvrgeek Avatar
tvrgeek Silver Member Scott S
Hillsborough, North Carolinia, USA   USA
1965 MG MGB
Head work is a serious possibility for this fall so just thinking and asking. Only musing about ignitions as my 123 works quite well. Ignition is a hobby/curiosity. ( I have a lot) so I will return to it every now and again. I have about half of a test bench in parts, but no time to set it up. I have half of my Arduino dwell tach done. ( it measures actual dwell at any RPM, not just 1000 maybe, inaccurately as most meters do) I then want to do data logging on it and be able to plot actual dwell to RPM to see how the various igniters who advertise " variable dwell" are doing it. Most I think are just a short time window cur short by the need to trigger. HEI and TFI were far more advanced but exactly what they do is not well described in the open forum. Tomorrow I should get the gas line to my barn, waiting on an estimate from an electrician. Then a floor. Priorities.

I had an idea for a cheap-skate flow bench. Fluid is basically fluid, so the idea was to use water. One could time how long it took for a gallon of water to flow by gravity through a port at different lifts. No where near as useful as Smokies running bench ( Big V8 to power the engine under test, so flow was done on a reciprocating engine, not static. )

Anyway, my background is in electronics rather than fluids, so I dabble where I have a clue. Fluids is HARD!



Cogito ergo sum periculoso

HiPowerShooter Avatar
HiPowerShooter Gold Member James Booker
Lake Winneconne, WI, USA   USA
1973 MG MGB
Yeah, after displacement top end work will provide actual results felt by the driver. All the ignition hocus pocus is simply a numbers game to large extent and provides no real advantage in a relatively stock, street driven car. Only until you start living in the upper reaches will you really see any advantage...and even that's questionable.

Just accept you probably won't get it right the first time and be willing to keep at it until you do. Besides...you'll be able to R&R your head in an hour or so after a couple try's.!lol!

In reply to # 3718228 by riley1489 Scott
Drop your ignition projects and do some cylinder head work.




"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions"--Alvin "Tex" Johnston...Boeing test pilot.

73 MGB. Tires: Round, black, hold air. Oil: Sometimes old, sometimes new...always slippery. Oil filter: Yellow, usually full of oil. Carbs: 2 SU HIF. Distributor: Yes. Headlights: Not that bright but bright enough. A bunch of other stuff most cars have but not really important enough to itemize. Oh, wait...it has a cool sounding exhaust with stickers on the chrome tips. Really slays the ladies...

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Speedracer Avatar
Speedracer Platinum Member Hap Waldrop
Greenville, SC, USA   USA
1967 MG MGB Racecar "The Biscuit"
In reply to # 3718331 by HiPowerShooter Yeah, after displacement top end work will provide actual results felt by the driver. All the ignition hocus pocus is simply a numbers game to large extent and provides no real advantage in a relatively stock, street driven car. Only until you start living in the upper reaches will you really see any advantage...and even that's questionable.

Just accept you probably won't get it right the first time and be willing to keep at it until you do. Besides...you'll be able to R&R your head in an hour or so after a couple try's.!lol!

In reply to # 3718228 by riley1489 Scott
Drop your ignition projects and do some cylinder head work.


Porting should always be part of overall performance plan. Race customers, well well funded ones anyway, go after every bit of HP/Improvements they can, lot of time regardless of cost. Street engine customers want more of best bang for the buck approach, they like for me to rank them for them, and done many times, so here ya go.

Now this is a given that you already have decent carburation, exhaust, and a good ignition. HP always works the same way, in the beginning the bigger gains, are not all that expensive, as the quest for more power goes on the items cost more and net less.

1. Increase compression ratio, cheap,and easy enough to in the course of a rebuild. On the 18V simply buying the most common, least expensive 8.8 to 1 piston set will net you 9.2-9.6 to 1 CR (depending on the bore size) with a virgin block and head surface. Early 42cc head engines I recommend a combination of block resurfacing, and cylinder head resurfacing, resurfacing the block to lessen piston to block deck height, this will reduce the amount of material you will have to remove from the cylinder head to get your CR target , which if seeking 9.7-10 to 1 would require a good .070"-.080" off the head to get to your target, say if you deck the block .015"-.020" (stock piston to block deck height is .033"winking smiley and you will reduce the amount taken off the head by half, or more.

2. A street performance camshaft. Again, if you got to buy a new cam and lifters, this does not really add much expense to the budget for what you get in return. A better than stock cam will give you more grunt, yes even in the low end, tone more in the middelan gain on the top end. Timing a performance cam is key to getting the most our of purchase, all performance cams will make a solid, "feel in the seat of your pants" improvement if the cam is advanced 3-5 degrees depending the cam, you have two way to time your new cam, offset keyways, or a adjustable vernier cam gear. The vernier adjustable cam gear IMHO is an investment in sanity smiling smiley If you are going to buying new timing gears, and chain, then buying a offset key, you're looking at $100 upgrade to get the vernier adjustable cam gear, and you will have zero compromises on hitting your target, save time and overall not want to shoot yourself in the foot smiling smiley (note: there is exact sequence/set up to installing the vernier gear correctly and getting it all right)

3. Head work. This can range from anything to a good stock rebuild, to a port and polish job with larger intake valves. Just getting a good rebuild will increase the power some. Installing hardened exhaust valve seat insert for unleaded gas will help the vale seal better, as will a good multi angle valve job. MGB head parts are good, and for that reason alone, why trust 30-50 year old parts, so get new valves, guides, valve spring, on stock rebuilds these parts will only be $100-150 range, maybe a little more if you select to switch to dual spring or bigger valve in more prepped head. A ported head can net you 8-10% in gains.

4. Reducing rotating mass . Aluminum flywheel, this won't net you any real HP, but it will greatly reduce the rotating mass, and the B series motor needs this badly. Even on stock engine you would notice a real seat of the pants difference. Lighter connecting rods, a few years ago this would not even topic for someone wanting to build a MGB street performance engine due to the expense of aftermarket, or lightened factory, connecting rods. However these days a MGB owner can go to aftermarket H beam connecting rods with ARP rod bolts that reduce rod weight per rod 150-350 grams by going to a set of Maxspeeding connecting rods, and if you resizing, balancing and using ARP rod bolts in the stock rods then this is less than a $100 upgrade, too cheap to ignore.

All the above listed items is what I consider to be a good bang for the buck for a street performance rebuild.

OK for this point on things get more expensive and most of them cost more than the above, and net less gains, with the exception of forced induction.

Roller rocker arms. Well if going this route I am am going to go for more rocker ratio. This will net some mid range and more top end power. There;s alot more to it than simply bolting on set of roller rocker, you need more than the rocker arms, shims, longer push rods, maybe even head mods for push rod clearance on some rocker arms. Figure to do this right yourself, you are in for a minimum of $500 in parts for maybe 2-3% gains.

A good exhaust. Now this forum is famous for many times it being stated that a header nets no gains over a CB stock exhaust manifold, this is probably true if you buy a cheap, poorly designed header, however if you spend a little more an get a well designed header and exhaust system then this may be worth 5% over the stock CB exhaust manifold.

Forced induction: Expensive, but a real gain, now some of the more clever members here have managed to make their own S/C or Turbo set up and save a ton of money, but these project require your skill level to be greater to pull it all. The Moss S/C i stock form only puts out about 5-6 psi of boost, but that alone can boost your stock HP 20%, now if you decide to go higher boost, many have reliably done 12-13 psi, but this require more work, say you do everything above except the more CR, you can see some huge gains, 75% or more depending on what stock HP you start with. A high boost street performance engine done right will be the most expensive choice. I know someone, many you know as well, I'll let him out himself if chooses to, is working on 5-6 psi bolt on turbo kit, now this looks interesting, expense should cost less than the SC, and the 5-6 psi of turbo should net more than the 5-6 psi of the SC, due to it's concept.

Hope this helps.



Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Website: www.acmespeedshop.com
hapwaldrop@acmespeedshop.com


Member Services:
MG/ Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines - Cylinder Head Porting - Modified SU HS Carbs - DIY Engine Rebuild Kits With Free Tech Advice - VTO alloy wheels for British Sport Cars, and others
tvrgeek Avatar
tvrgeek Silver Member Scott S
Hillsborough, North Carolinia, USA   USA
1965 MG MGB
Ignition is not hocus-pocus to those who understand it. Of course, it dose not make more HP, but it helps you not lose as much. Drive-ability. Cold start and drive away. You would be surprised if you read the research how often a conventional ID system does not completely ignite the charge. This is why the industry had to invent a more solid ignition as burning every charge reduced HC to pass emissions, improved the mileage and to a lesser extent power. Will you feel massive power? Of course not. Only the advertising for snake oil will say that. You might be surprised how many people have said they like a lumpy idle, as in frequent miss-fires. I guess it makes them think they have a radical cam.

That was not the topic I opened. It was if anything very new had been developed in the last 20 or so years for the B series internals. Not too much. A bit better understanding of porting as Hap reports. Nothing really new in pistons or cams for street use. I wish it was possible to fit a hydraulic roller cam for instance.


In reply to # 3718331 by HiPowerShooter Yeah, after displacement top end work will provide actual results felt by the driver. All the ignition hocus pocus is simply a numbers game to large extent and provides no real advantage in a relatively stock, street driven car. Only until you start living in the upper reaches will you really see any advantage...and even that's questionable.

Just accept you probably won't get it right the first time and be willing to keep at it until you do. Besides...you'll be able to R&R your head in an hour or so after a couple try's.!lol!

In reply to # 3718228 by riley1489 Scott
Drop your ignition projects and do some cylinder head work.




Cogito ergo sum periculoso

HiPowerShooter Avatar
HiPowerShooter Gold Member James Booker
Lake Winneconne, WI, USA   USA
1973 MG MGB
We're still talking about the 100 year old tractor engine.....right?

I work in an engine shop where we build/rebuild 700+ HP "legal" strip engines, short track and off shore racing monsters. One of the heads I just finished unpacking from Merlin will end up costing(after our work) more than 5x the entire cost of my MGB. ONE...he will have two of them slapped on his $20k long block. My point is that of COURSE ignition is important...but realistically you can only slap so much "modern" tech onto the lowly 1.8l and expect any PRACTICAL return on either research, work or investment.

The first 90% of total potential HP is "easy" and "cheap" in almost any engine. The next 5% is expensive and requires some specialized work(punching bigger holes, cams, HiPo EFI/Ignition etc...). The next 5% is almost impossible for all but those with unlimited funds and resources..



"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions"--Alvin "Tex" Johnston...Boeing test pilot.

73 MGB. Tires: Round, black, hold air. Oil: Sometimes old, sometimes new...always slippery. Oil filter: Yellow, usually full of oil. Carbs: 2 SU HIF. Distributor: Yes. Headlights: Not that bright but bright enough. A bunch of other stuff most cars have but not really important enough to itemize. Oh, wait...it has a cool sounding exhaust with stickers on the chrome tips. Really slays the ladies...

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riley1489 Avatar
riley1489 Gold Member Bruce H
Great White North, QC, Canada   CAN
1953 Jaguar XK120
1959 Riley 1.5 "King George"
1973 MG MGB
In reply to # 3718766 by HiPowerShooter We're still talking about the 100 year old tractor engine.....right?

actually approximately 65 years old, Happy Birthday! and approximately 35 years since production ended, and primarily used in automobiles! grinning smiley

B



Check your ego Amigo!

HiPowerShooter Avatar
HiPowerShooter Gold Member James Booker
Lake Winneconne, WI, USA   USA
1973 MG MGB
It's general design is roughly 100 years old....Especially the head. Looks almost identical to many of the vintage tractor engines we see in the shop. Actually what the owner thought it was when I first brought it in...hence my moniker.

I'm also pretty sure I read that it's design was based ON an old tractor engine back in the UK. Hence it's "upside down" (long stroke-v-small bore) design for torque.

In reply to # 3718773 by riley1489
In reply to # 3718766 by HiPowerShooter We're still talking about the 100 year old tractor engine.....right?

actually approximately 65 years old, Happy Birthday! and approximately 35 years since production ended, and primarily used in automobiles! grinning smiley

B



"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions"--Alvin "Tex" Johnston...Boeing test pilot.

73 MGB. Tires: Round, black, hold air. Oil: Sometimes old, sometimes new...always slippery. Oil filter: Yellow, usually full of oil. Carbs: 2 SU HIF. Distributor: Yes. Headlights: Not that bright but bright enough. A bunch of other stuff most cars have but not really important enough to itemize. Oh, wait...it has a cool sounding exhaust with stickers on the chrome tips. Really slays the ladies...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-17 02:28 PM by HiPowerShooter.

riley1489 Avatar
riley1489 Gold Member Bruce H
Great White North, QC, Canada   CAN
1953 Jaguar XK120
1959 Riley 1.5 "King George"
1973 MG MGB
In reply to # 3718780 by HiPowerShooter It's general design is roughly 100 years old....Especially the head.
Ummm ..............

the Weslake patents are for 1950's design of the B series OH valve cylinder head, grinning smiley

B



Check your ego Amigo!

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