MGExp

MGB & GT Forum

Enhancing ID ignition, thoughts

Moss Motors
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor

tvrgeek Avatar
tvrgeek Silver Member Scott S
Hillsborough, North Carolinia, USA   USA
1965 MG MGB
This site lists lots of coils, but no specs.
https://au.bosch-automotive-shop.com/products/categories/-/category/11/ignition-coils

Usual German precision, each tuned to some perceived need, but we are left guessing what.



Cogito ergo sum periculoso

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
ozieagle Avatar
ozieagle Gold Member Herb Adler
Geelong Victoria, Australia   AUS
1958 Wolseley 1500 "Wooly"
1966 MG MGB "Bl**dy B"
Sorry Scott that I can't add more. I've only ever seen them advertised for sale. I've got a 3 ohm one in my B, and it runs OK, and tried a 1.5 ohm in my Wolseley, with a 123 ign, but it didn't seem to play very well.

I an enjoying this thread, as it has opened my eyes to my total ignorance of coils. To me coils were coils, in two versions, standard and sports. I never suspected all the intricacies of their design.

Herb



Questions about prostate cancer? Click here to join the discussion

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
GMB3 Avatar
GMB3 Silver Member George Badger
Soquel, CA, USA   USA
1965 Jaguar E-Type Coupe "1QUICK E"
1968 MG MGB "1QUICK B"
tvrgeek Avatar
tvrgeek Silver Member Scott S
Hillsborough, North Carolinia, USA   USA
1965 MG MGB
Before I moved, I was working on data logging for my O2 sensor. I can get it into a file, but was having some data format issues to work out trying to match a time-stamp to it. I am used to hiring programmers, not being one. grinning smiley Started looking at the data stream from my 123 to see if I could log it. One more project I don't have time for.



Cogito ergo sum periculoso

B-racer Avatar
B-racer Jeff Schlemmer
Shakopee, MN, USA   USA
1950 Willys Jeep Pickup "Ratrod"
1971 MG MGB
2014 Dodge Charger
My understanding is that all the Bosch red coils are being made in Mexico - where the "bad" blue coils come from. Likely from Wells, under contract for Bosch. Not good. If you buy Bosch Red, it better have "Made in Germany" stamped into the metal housing.

A small bore low compression (under 10:1) 4 cylinder does not need anything fancy to burn the small air/fuel charge in the cylinder. Period. The big questions are:
1. is the spark strong enough to ignite the fuel *and*
2. will the spark stay lit long enough to burn all that fuel in the allotted time (at the given rpm).

Adding electronics may bolster what you already have, or it may degrade what you have. More often than not it degrades the factory's basic setup. I'm working under the parameters that the distributor is not worn or damaged, or defective in any way.



jeff@advanceddistributors.com

tvrgeek Avatar
tvrgeek Silver Member Scott S
Hillsborough, North Carolinia, USA   USA
1965 MG MGB
Here I agree with you almost completely*. Note I am not talking about fixing a less than perfect, or more appropriately tuned, stock points system. We know the solution as developed by every single manufacturer is a COP or CNP ECU managed high energy ID system. They are now so good, only one or two incomplete ignitions, based on spark impedance, is enough to give a check light. Almost perfect. I run a 123 with a 1.5 Ohm coil, so I already have more reliable ignition than OEM. When I get to it, I intend a crank/cam timed COP system driven by an Arduino or MicroSquirt if I a too lazy to write the code. I was musing on different approaches, things not done by the OEMs.

Good info the Red's are now no longer great quality. Shame, as most Mexican quality is far better than Chinese. Bosch must not be on the ball. So, who makes the most reliable, reasonably high inductance 1.5 Ohm coil? Delco? For that matter, how is the quality of the Bosch parts for the 45D out of Australia? Maybe a source for decent points and condensers? Not for me as mine uses a Bosch cap and rotor. but for the many points based folks.

Again, just for thought, I was wondering if newer exotic points materials could withstand 6 A or so. If that were the case, one could do much better still with points. Instead, I gather contact materials are not even as good as they used to be. It was a few year back, but we did a bunch of analysis on high current relays and there were some very robust solutions. We were switching 45A. Another solution to the points problem would be to run an isolated higher voltage ignition system. 24V or so.


* We will continue to disagree with the ability of a points based 3 Ohm /4A system to fire every charge completely every time. A 1.5 Ohm/6A is closer but not possible with points. If so, the expense of developing high energy systems for emissions would never have happened. They do well enough; carried the burden for 50 years. Electronics can do other wonderful things like adaptive advance, knock detection, idle stabilization, and more precise timing with much higher energy. Even my chain saw has electronic ignition.



Cogito ergo sum periculoso

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
GMB3 Avatar
GMB3 Silver Member George Badger
Soquel, CA, USA   USA
1965 Jaguar E-Type Coupe "1QUICK E"
1968 MG MGB "1QUICK B"
Doesn't some of the stock car crowd run 16V systems?



---
GEO

tvrgeek Avatar
tvrgeek Silver Member Scott S
Hillsborough, North Carolinia, USA   USA
1965 MG MGB
Yes they do. With CDI systems. I suspect it is because the rules limit the technology allowed. NASCAR is still required to run a distributor.

I wonder how we got stuck with 12V systems. Many things would have been easier if we had 24 or 36V. I remember a few years ago there was some talk about changing, but that seemed to go away. I guess we are stuck with it as a standard. Think wheels measured in inches but tires in metric.



Cogito ergo sum periculoso

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
jimb Avatar
jimb Jim Brown
San Francisco Bay Area, USA   USA
1967 MG MGB
I don't think there is anything stopping you from using a DC to DC converter and choosing your own voltage as far as ignition goes. Isn't the the first step in a CDI?

Fred Winterburn Avatar
Ripley, ON, Canada   CAN
The answer might be shock hazard with going to higher voltage. 24V can give a little poke under the right conditions while 12V won't. Given how crappy most car wiring is, it probably makes sense just to stick with 12V even if the wire size needs to be a little larger to compensate. Fred

In reply to # 3718108 by tvrgeek Yes they do. With CDI systems. I suspect it is because the rules limit the technology allowed. NASCAR is still required to run a distributor.

I wonder how we got stuck with 12V systems. Many things would have been easier if we had 24 or 36V. I remember a few years ago there was some talk about changing, but that seemed to go away. I guess we are stuck with it as a standard. Think wheels measured in inches but tires in metric.



'Anyone who likes liver, can't taste it'
'If you want to repair car electrical systems successfully, learn Ohm's Law'.

Fred Winterburn Avatar
Ripley, ON, Canada   CAN
Yes, on any battery powered CDI, there needs to be a power supply to raise the charge voltage on the capacitor. Some do it in one half cycle of the power supply (like the old MSD6A) and some use a DC to DC converter running from either a few hundred Hz to many thousands of Hz depending on the design. The Kettering system is actually close to the MSD6A in that the coil itself is the high voltage power supply that takes 12V at the coil primary and converts that to approximately 300V when the points open (from self induction). Fred.

In reply to # 3718234 by jimb I don't think there is anything stopping you from using a DC to DC converter and choosing your own voltage as far as ignition goes. Isn't the the first step in a CDI?



'Anyone who likes liver, can't taste it'
'If you want to repair car electrical systems successfully, learn Ohm's Law'.

Fred Winterburn Avatar
Ripley, ON, Canada   CAN
If they need to run 16V with CDI, the CDI is not designed properly. I have tested two older MSD6A ignitions. One built around 1980 and the other 2009. Both needed a full 18V to put out the advertised voltage output. They are much tamer than I first thought when running at 14V. Fred

In reply to # 3718108 by tvrgeek Yes they do. With CDI systems. I suspect it is because the rules limit the technology allowed. NASCAR is still required to run a distributor.

I wonder how we got stuck with 12V systems. Many things would have been easier if we had 24 or 36V. I remember a few years ago there was some talk about changing, but that seemed to go away. I guess we are stuck with it as a standard. Think wheels measured in inches but tires in metric.



'Anyone who likes liver, can't taste it'
'If you want to repair car electrical systems successfully, learn Ohm's Law'.

tvrgeek Avatar
tvrgeek Silver Member Scott S
Hillsborough, North Carolinia, USA   USA
1965 MG MGB
And that gets back to the limitation of a CDI coil being just a transformer and not a storage device, so the duration is very short. Sometimes too short which is why MDS was developed. That comes back to my earlier ideas of a secondary DC supply that is only high enough to conduct if the arc is already established, or using an IDI to piggy back and extend a CDI, or an idea of a large bank of caps to extend the CDI with rapid discharges. Maybe too much as too much energy will blow the kernel away from the plug.

All complicated and expensive. Not things manufactures want to hear. So Detroit did the HEI and TFI which were darn good, ( everyone else had their versions) and only went to the very expensive COP/ECU when they had to go from darn good to darn near perfect for emissions. Three generations: 3 OHm/points or igniter made cars run pretty well. HEI generation made cars run perceived perfect, and third modern COP systems making them actually near perfect.

I remember a story, maybe true, maybe totally fiction, but when the emission requirements were getting really tough, Ford and others were petitioning the Government saying it was just near impossible. Honda showed up with a stock Accord with an improved ignition saying " what's your problem" The story has Ford rather upset at Honda.

I'll buy the 6 or 12V back in the rubber/cotton days, but now? No excuse. Shock hazard? Not really. We are not supposed to be grabbing live wires. Plastic is cheaper and lighter than copper, so advantage there.

I guess we are all out of wacky ideas now. Back to mundane work. Maybe I'll muse on complex chamber designs. Why did Yates/Ford Ying-Yang not work? Later.
Thanks all.



Cogito ergo sum periculoso

Fred Winterburn Avatar
Ripley, ON, Canada   CAN
Who says (I know everyone else but me) that a CDI coil should just be a transformer with no storage capability? I rather disagree. The losses are easily compensated for and the result can be a longer duration spark with plenty of CD power (as opposed to inductive energy). Fred

In reply to # 3718299 by tvrgeek And that gets back to the limitation of a CDI coil being just a transformer and not a storage device, so the duration is very short. Sometimes too short which is why MDS was developed. That comes back to my earlier ideas of a secondary DC supply that is only high enough to conduct if the arc is already established, or using an IDI to piggy back and extend a CDI, or an idea of a large bank of caps to extend the CDI with rapid discharges. Maybe too much as too much energy will blow the kernel away from the plug.

All complicated and expensive. Not things manufactures want to hear. So Detroit did the HEI and TFI which were darn good, ( everyone else had their versions) and only went to the very expensive COP/ECU when they had to go from darn good to darn near perfect for emissions. Three generations: 3 OHm/points or igniter made cars run pretty well. HEI generation made cars run perceived perfect, and third modern COP systems making them actually near perfect.

I remember a story, maybe true, maybe totally fiction, but when the emission requirements were getting really tough, Ford and others were petitioning the Government saying it was just near impossible. Honda showed up with a stock Accord with an improved ignition saying " what's your problem" The story has Ford rather upset at Honda.

I'll buy the 6 or 12V back in the rubber/cotton days, but now? No excuse. Shock hazard? Not really. We are not supposed to be grabbing live wires. Plastic is cheaper and lighter than copper, so advantage there.

I guess we are all out of wacky ideas now. Back to mundane work. Maybe I'll muse on complex chamber designs. Why did Yates/Ford Ying-Yang not work? Later.
Thanks all.



'Anyone who likes liver, can't taste it'
'If you want to repair car electrical systems successfully, learn Ohm's Law'.

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

To add your reply, or post your own questions




Registration is FREE and takes less than a minute!


Having trouble posting or changing forum settings?
Read the Forum Help (FAQ) or contact the webmaster





Join The Club

Sign in to ask questions, share photos, and access all website features

Your Cars

1980 MG MGB V8 Conversion

Text Size

Larger Smaller
Reset Save

Sponsor Links