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which Rover/ Range rover engine needs least work ?

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Not-Anumber Chris Silk
Southend, East Anglia, UK   GBR
I have been given a standard 3.5 Rover engine from an SD1, with carbs, which was stripped down ready for rebuild. My MGB project is long term as I am working on other cars with limited free time. Every time I open the shed where the V8 engine is stored in it's piles and boxes I start wondering though if it is actually the best of the Rover derived engines to go for.

Is the fact of having this engine already in my possession enough of a compelling reason to use it rather than sourcing something else ?

The Roger Williams book says a lot about the length of the engine needing to be reduced by selecting the right combination of front cover and pulleys. But then it seems to go on to say that using a later, Range Rover engine could be a way around this. It seemed a bit vague though. Can anyone here tell me clearly if that is the case, will one of the range Rover engines 3.9, 4.0 or 4.7 s fit without changing the pulleys and front cover ?

The carbs and manifold that came with the Rover engine will clearly be too high to fit without a huge bonnet bulge to make space for them. Can anyone tell me if the fuel injection systems that came on the later 3.9, 4.0 and 4.7 engines can be used with minimal modifications ?

Chris

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Ricey30 Avatar
Ricey30 Phil R
Chessington, Surrey, UK   GBR
Hi Chris

I did the 3.9 last year but I ran a 4 barrel edelbrock as I couldn’t deal with fitting the injection and putting a swirl pot in the tank.

I kept the front pulleys and the timing cover and the high water pump as I couldn’t get the right front pulley and timing cover without spending silly money on eBay.

It does just fit but I had to grind the thread off the nose of the pump to clear the rad and lower the bottom antitoll bar to clear the front pulleys

Rember it’s basicly the Mg RV8 engine, there is a RV8 anti roll bar with a bend in it but they are non existent

I wanted cubic capacity over originality and didn’t want the bigger 4.6 as more expensive

If you’ve hit the engine with the front pulley and timing cover and it’s ok then cheaper to use that than buy another

But if you want a bit more torque and bhp the bigger engine gives more than the 3.5

Phil

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Not-Anumber Chris Silk
Southend, East Anglia, UK   GBR
Thanks. That's much better than i expected to hear, you managing to retain the original water pump, timing cover and pulley set from the 3.9 is very encouraging.

Im guessing the front cover, water pump and pulley on my 3.5 SD1 lump will be unsuitable as the book suggests they would need swapping for ones from a Rover P6, unless ive got that hopelessly wrong (which happens often). confused smiley

Did you buy a whole donor vehicle or just get an engine on it's own ?

What gearbox are you using ?

Apologies for so many questions

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Ricey30 Avatar
Ricey30 Phil R
Chessington, Surrey, UK   GBR
Happy to answer any Qs as this forum soo helped me !

I’m running LT77 gearbox with standard rear end, I haven’t changed to the 3.07 diff yet but the acceleration with the 3.9 diff is brilliant. I found old school gearbox guy in the midlands who rebuilt my gearbox for £450

Supposedly the gear shift on the Lt77 should fit in the existing hole, I had to elongate mine even though engine mounts etc were standard.

I’ve had lots of trials and tribulations building mine and if I can help please ask or PM me.

(If you need a gearbox, belllhousung flywheel, clutch carb and manifold and a stripped 3.9 let me know as I have a second stash�)

Phil






On 14 Feb 2019, at 20:02, The MG Experience <no-reply@mgexp.com> wrote:

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Not-Anumber wrote in Re: which Rover/ Range rover engine needs least work ?
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Thanks. That's much better than i expected to hear, you managing to retain the original water pump, timing cover and pulley set from the 3.9 is very encouraging.

Im guessing the front cover, water pump and pulley on my 3.5 SD1 lump will be unsuitable as the book suggests they would need swapping for ones from a Rover P6, unless ive got that hopelessly wrong (which happens often). confused smiley

Did you buy a whole donor vehicle or just get an engine on it's own ?

What gearbox are you using ?

Apologies for so many questions

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Ricey30 Avatar
Ricey30 Phil R
Chessington, Surrey, UK   GBR
Meant to add I got just the engine from a 1994 RR. Bin all the ancillaries as none of the brackets will work.

You will need a manual flywheel as all the 3.9 came with autos plus there is a bush in the end of the crank shaft on the gearbox end that needs changing to take the nose of the gearbox shaft. Easily obtainable.

Other item is the alternator bracket. Unless you fab your own the P6 bracket will work but will need forward to allow fir the pulley alignment

Not sure if the Sd1 lump you have had the right cover and pulley as not dealt with it myself in detail. I’m sure one of the guys on hear can help with that or try the guys at http://www.mgbv8.co.uk/ they are open odd hours but know everything about the conversion and have a lot of parts

Phil


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allanreeling ALLAN R
RANDLAY, TELFORD, Shropshire, UK   GBR
Chris,
In terms of complications until you get to the 4'0 litre LR engine everything is more or less the same. Once †he 3.9 interim engine became the 4.0 litre (Same capacity) things, changed the crank was longer to accommodate the serpentine belts and ignition distribution was electronic.
Whatever you will probably want to replace the front cover to get the distributor drive plus the earlier oil pump.
The crank driven oil pump is a better item but presents clearance issues and doesn't give you a dissy drive as the 4.0 had electronic distribution.
The SD1 Vitesse 3,5 is a good engine and can be tuned to run on HIF 6's or a Weber/Edelbrock with good results. Mine gives 180BHP and 230ft/lbs. Apart from a good cam there is no other overt tuning and it is on Twin HIF6's and the standard MGBV8 manifold and plenum. .
The LT77, suffix E onwards and the R380 are strong decent boxes. Ideally the the remote is best shortened by 30 to 35 mm but a plate can be welded in the middle of the stick and does work.
I have a 3.9 in my conversion, it has more torque, obviously but the 3.5 is a sweeter engine and not so down on power.
My difs is 3.07 which gives "long legs" and decent economy, 30mpg av and certainly is not a sluggard off the line.
I have a TWR Offenhauser inlet with a 1404 Edelbrock, if you want to go down that road!! (PUN)
Have just dug up a couple of pics. SU and Edelbrock.
Personally never seen a wrecked 3.5 block but several early 3.9's which could suffer from loose liners.
What usually scraps a 3.5 is loss of register for the main bearing caps caused by "fretting" as the block flexes, this was partially addressed with the SD1 Vitesse "stiff block". Land Rover continued to beef up the block throughout production as well as ultra sounding blocks to measure wall thickness of cast bores before boring them to accept the bigger 3.9 liners. Casting core shift was the main reason for cracking around the liners, leading to loss of liner grip.



soonerv8



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-02-15 02:43 AM by allanreeling.


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Peter-Sherman Avatar
Peter-Sherman Peter Sherman
Melbourne, Australia   AUS
The work is about the same for all of them. The 3.5 has the right front section, but that might need replacing anyway (erosion), the 3.5's were not without issues and the other bigger motors address thos issues, and are more powerful.
The 3.5's have a common problem where if they are overheated at some time (happens allot in Australia, hotter here), because of the different thermal expansion coefficients, the bolts holding the crank loosen just a little. Crank moves block cracks. If bad enough cylinder liners move. I couldn't find a single good 3.5 engine when I went to do the conversion. I looked at about a dozen. You will see little cracks either side of the crank bolts in the middle. If the block is usable, the fix here is to either fit studs or locktight stud locker the bolts in. The expensive fix rover adopted was to install crossbolting. Really locks the bottom of the engine together. This was on the 4.0's and larger. They also beefed up the block guite allot. The larger motor is worth getting. FYI the motor is only a small part of the cost of a V8 swap. Gearbox, flywheel clutchhousing, gearbox tailshaft, radiator, fans, exhaust system will cost more and considering the effort you are going to put in it may as well be as good as it gets. I've got a 4.0 because it was not legal to fit the 4.6, although I should have got the 4.6 as there is no way that you can tell from the outside. The longer crank(they put the oil pump on the crank) is not a problem at all. Just use a thick spacer that goes around the end of the crank that pushes the bottom pully/balancer futher back. Most Rover mg conversion places sell this spacer for not very much, or you could make one easily enough.
Adapting the later serpentine front covers, could be done, but very few do as the benefits are tiny and it is much much easier and cheaper to put on a 3.5 front. Straight bolt on. You can fit the RV8 remote oil filter adapter to that front. Also a bolt on. Check this link here, lots of conversions and they all use the earlier front. http://www.britishv8.org/Photos-MG-Conversions.htm

Most people set the motor a little further back, and a little lower. Make your own mounts, or buy them off Glenn Towery
pic's here http://www.britishv8.org/articles/rover-hot-wire-efi.htm
You need either the P5 or 6 bottom pully/balancer, or an SD1 balancer. This has a very long neck that the antisway bar edit steering rack will fit, tuck up under under, so your bottom pulley is infront of the sway bar edit steering rack and the sway bar edit steering rack is infront of the engine. I used an SD1 balancer and rather than machine a grove in it, I simply moved the pulley at the back, the flattest one, to the front and discarded all the rest. If the belt is a little further forward you get better clearance of the hoses and it makes no difference to the radiator clearance. You will also probably want a P5/6 alternator bracket. Exactly the same as an MGBV8 one, except half the price. I spacered that bracket forward so the rover alternator pulley lined up with the bottom pulley. Enabled me to use a bigger alternator as well. That just left the water pump pulley to align. At first I put a spacer between pump and pulley so it moved forward enough to line up with the other two. Later, in a junckyard, I noticed that the rover "air con" water pump pulley was already spacered. A machine shop made the grove a little wider and machined down the EFI plenum about 28mm, all for about $100
I initially drove the conversion around with the 3.9 diff', then some years later fitted a 3.04 V8 diff. I really regret that. Too tall, I do not need the 5th gear at legal speeds. In first gear, peak hour, my foot is always in the clutch as I'm geared taller than anyone else around me. I miss the massive acceleration I had in second gear with the 3.9 diff. I do not regret fitting a quaif LS carrier, awesome in wet weather.
Gearboxes- the T5 has the best ratios to go with a 3.9 diff. Pick the right version and it's perfect. I'm using a Toyota supra box, which is very smooth, nice, but, ratios not quite as suited to a 3.9 diff as the T5, and not suited to a 3.04 diff.
You do not need to bother with a swirl pot if you want efi. . I used a very late model MGB fuel sender (about $50). This has it's own fuel uptake pipe. That gives you two lines in the tank. You could also run a pipe through an existing sender as you can remove it to a safe distance. I connect the fuel uptake pipe to a large efi metal fuel filter which is in turn connected to a peirberge high suction low pressure high flow universal rollervane pump that feeds a high pressure low suction high flow rollervane bosh pump. You can't have both high pressure and high suction. The big fuel filter acts like a "swirl pot" In 16 years and way more than 100,000 kms I've never had a problem with starvation. Still using the same pumps. I initially had pumps and filter lying in the corner of the boot. Later I made up a box and tucked them in behind the Rear right wheel under the boot. There's an empty space there.
sorry about edit mistake- don;t know what I was thinking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-02-20 06:52 AM by Peter-Sherman.


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Peter-Sherman Peter Sherman
Melbourne, Australia   AUS
Here you can just see the remote V8 pump without the filter and the simple motor mounts.


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MGB567 Avatar
MGB567 Gold Member Barrie Braxton
Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia   AUS
1966 MG MGB MkI "Money Guzzler"
1979 MG MGB GT V8 Conversion "Darkside"
"I've got a 4.0 because it was not legal to fit the 4.6, although I should have got the 4.6 as there is no way that you can tell from the outside."

Hey P-S you may have answered this for me before but why illegal? As you know I've gone to the 2nd largest capacity (I see there's a 5.2 version) and that was based on my regs which say a max of 5 times the weight of the car for normally aspirated or 2.5 times for turbo/supercharger.

Of course my 5litre needed no work to fit although other stuff was modified but not the engine itself. eg a notch out of the sump to clear the FCFE xmember and Glenn's mounts not lowering enough to fit under the bonnet (but I always intended having a C style hump) and I had to forgo a viscous coupling.



Convertible: CKD 11/66 first registered 8/5/67. Owned since 3/77. 90% original sheet metal. 18GB +40 balanced with almost all new internals. Peter Burgess big valve fast road head. Piper 285. Fidanza FW. Basil's followers and pushrods. TR7clutch. TT exhaust. ARP everywhere. 123 ign. Needham 4synchro c/r box.. Stock rebuilt/replaced suspension. Superpro bushes. New brakes all round including all pipes in SS flex. Interior redone. CAMS approved roll bar and side bars. Lots more. Hybrid of o/e and show/fast road car. Not for sale - it's my toy!

GT: UK car built/sold December '78. Stripped back to bare shell with VW Golf flared guards, flush fit front and rear valances with front guards immovable. Front and rear seams removed,Torana XU1 vents, frenched indicators front & Mk1 rear lights. Powered by 'worked' Rover 5 litre V8 (ex TVR Chimaera) with efi. T5 box. FC IFS. CCE rear attached to Salisbury axle with Quaife. All new interior with MrMikes covers on MX5 seats. Retro4 7x15 rims (zero offset) and 205/55 rubber. Colour: Jaguar Storm. Not for sale - it's my sanity!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-02-15 03:08 AM by MGB567.

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Denis Avatar
Denis Denis Hill
Bearii, Nth Victoria, Australia   AUS
Our ADRs say a 15% increase in capacity is OK (VIC but supposed to be universal OZ) Thats about 4.025L I had the OE literature on the MGB V8 to show the tester and it went straight through. My car is not a radical conversion.
I had no problem using the 3.9 (1995) alternator mount and crank pulley but with the 3.5 timing case and OE MGB V8 water pump. My engine seem to be odd as it had the late 10 bolt heads but the old style oil pump. Denis



68 B roadster, Daffodil yellow, supercharger, Burgess SC head, SC cam, Mikuni HSR 48 carburetor and engine built for supercharging.

73 BGT V8 conversion starting with a bare shell. Built the engine "3.9L Rover" early in 2016 with high comp pistons and a few other nice bits, plus a T5 ford trans. Started on the body late 2016 and complete late 2017, Did all the work myself, mechanical, body. paint etc.
Finished and going well, great to drive and quick. Now has a nice 3.23 LSD.

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Peter-Sherman Avatar
Peter-Sherman Peter Sherman
Melbourne, Australia   AUS
Legality- There is a formula on the vic roads website, long time ago. Different formula in other states. Or was, it's a while ago now. Plus the RV8 was a 4.0. But it turns out that it didn't matter. I'm kicking myself now because I was all set to get the 5l stroker T&R are quite accommodating about that. Going by all the nudge nudge wink wink the guy at Vic roads was sure it was a stroker. The 4.0 is a T&R special all balanced ported etc, so not much different pricewise to a 5l stroker . Unless you put an airflow meter on the cylinder head or pull the motor out and take it to bits, there is no way to tell from the outside 4.0 vs 5.0. Yes there are engine numbers, but you can claim its rebuilt to 4.0 spec'. I'm surprised Glenns mounts won't do, he's done many conversions using them. Do you have an aluminium bonnet? I've read that there is less curve in those. You can get skinny rubber mounts from wheatley in England and you should be able to redrill Glenns mounts to squeeze them up against the block although I would have thought that they would be pretty tight already. I redrilled mine to get the engine down another half inch. If you weld up the vacuum take offs on the side you can get allot off the top of the trumpet tray. 10 to 12mm. Do Glenns "fuel rail feet tweak" and you can get more off the bottom. You can machine a bit off the top of the plenum as well.

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MGB567 Avatar
MGB567 Gold Member Barrie Braxton
Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia   AUS
1966 MG MGB MkI "Money Guzzler"
1979 MG MGB GT V8 Conversion "Darkside"
Thanks for the legality answers.

"Do you have an aluminium bonnet? I've read that there is less curve in those. You can get skinny rubber mounts from wheatley in England and you should be able to redrill Glenns mounts to squeeze them up against the block although I would have thought that they would be pretty tight already. I redrilled mine to get the engine down another half inch. If you weld up the vacuum take offs on the side you can get allot off the top of the trumpet tray. 10 to 12mm. Do Glenns "fuel rail feet tweak" and you can get more off the bottom. You can machine a bit off the top of the plenum as well."

Steel B bonnet which is about to be restyled to look like a C so that gives some more clearance - as it now is the bonnet closes albeit without a gap between the top of the plenum and the bonnet. I asked in another topic how to get the engine lower and thus the plenum but in the end if I could it would have introduced other issues. The trumpet base has had the underside milled like Glenn does. And despite Glenn's advice I milled several mm off the top of the manifold and then decked it like a head. Spent several hours porting and polishing the runners so they open out to the now 44mm ID of the trumpets and the trumpet base. Did more than Glenn's fuel rail tweak. I had some standard aka 3/4 injectors so I cut the legs off the rail at the base and then with the injectors as a guide my guru welded them back. I'll be running Clubsport injectors (but the Bosch version).



Convertible: CKD 11/66 first registered 8/5/67. Owned since 3/77. 90% original sheet metal. 18GB +40 balanced with almost all new internals. Peter Burgess big valve fast road head. Piper 285. Fidanza FW. Basil's followers and pushrods. TR7clutch. TT exhaust. ARP everywhere. 123 ign. Needham 4synchro c/r box.. Stock rebuilt/replaced suspension. Superpro bushes. New brakes all round including all pipes in SS flex. Interior redone. CAMS approved roll bar and side bars. Lots more. Hybrid of o/e and show/fast road car. Not for sale - it's my toy!

GT: UK car built/sold December '78. Stripped back to bare shell with VW Golf flared guards, flush fit front and rear valances with front guards immovable. Front and rear seams removed,Torana XU1 vents, frenched indicators front & Mk1 rear lights. Powered by 'worked' Rover 5 litre V8 (ex TVR Chimaera) with efi. T5 box. FC IFS. CCE rear attached to Salisbury axle with Quaife. All new interior with MrMikes covers on MX5 seats. Retro4 7x15 rims (zero offset) and 205/55 rubber. Colour: Jaguar Storm. Not for sale - it's my sanity!

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Ricey30 Avatar
Ricey30 Phil R
Chessington, Surrey, UK   GBR
Chris
Check this guy out if you haven’t already loads of tech info

http://www.vord.net/cars/mgb_mods/updates.html

Phil

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V8MGBV8 Avatar
V8MGBV8 Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN, USA   USA
In reply to # 3892581 by Ricey30 Chris
Check this guy out if you haven’t already loads of tech info

http://www.vord.net/cars/mgb_mods/updates.html

Phil

Yes. Back in the day, I spent a lot of time on that website. Sorry to hear he no longer has the car. Hope the website stays up.

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Peter-Sherman Avatar
Peter-Sherman Peter Sherman
Melbourne, Australia   AUS
In reply to # 3892504 by MGB567 Thanks for the legality answers.

"Do you have an aluminium bonnet? I've read that there is less curve in those. You can get skinny rubber mounts from wheatley in England and you should be able to redrill Glenns mounts to squeeze them up against the block although I would have thought that they would be pretty tight already. I redrilled mine to get the engine down another half inch. If you weld up the vacuum take offs on the side you can get allot off the top of the trumpet tray. 10 to 12mm. Do Glenns "fuel rail feet tweak" and you can get more off the bottom. You can machine a bit off the top of the plenum as well."

Steel B bonnet which is about to be restyled to look like a C so that gives some more clearance - as it now is the bonnet closes albeit without a gap between the top of the plenum and the bonnet. I asked in another topic how to get the engine lower and thus the plenum but in the end if I could it would have introduced other issues. The trumpet base has had the underside milled like Glenn does. And despite Glenn's advice I milled several mm off the top of the manifold and then decked it like a head. Spent several hours porting and polishing the runners so they open out to the now 44mm ID of the trumpets and the trumpet base. Did more than Glenn's fuel rail tweak. I had some standard aka 3/4 injectors so I cut the legs off the rail at the base and then with the injectors as a guide my guru welded them back. I'll be running Clubsport injectors (but the Bosch version).

Changing the bonnet will be quite expensive Barry. Unless that is the look that you want, just weld up the vacuum takeoffs and deck it some more. Currently I have about 8-10 mm off the top. Previously it was supposed to be 12 (but I think they took closer to 14mm). Stay about 2mm above the bottom radius (10mm?) and you'll be fine. Under vacuum not pressure and you'll silicone it anyway. Worked well but then I dropped the engine half an inch so thought I may as well go for more airflow. I moved the brake vac take off to one of the bolt holes on the back. Substituted a hose fitting. Here's some photos. It only has to just clear the bonnet. I put the old 1800 steady bar across the back of the engine, from head to corner of footwell. Fits perfectly and is long enough to absorb vibration. And I didn't have to make it. I'd suggest bolting a small plate to the right hand rear head. It's a bit awkward putting the bolt in direct. Next time the motor is out I'm going to do that.


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