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Toyota 3TC into a 66 midget

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mickri Chuck Losness
Squaw Valley, CA, USA   USA
I decided to start a swap thread instead of posting about my swap in "My Spridets" thread. I will limit this thread to just swap stuff.

Today I cut the front supports and did a trial fit of the toyota radiator. The radiator fits just like I hoped it would. Clears the hood by a good inch or so. Maybe 2 inches. I will need to get a 90 elbow for the bottom radiator hose and make some mounting brackets. Spent most of the day stripping stuff off the 3TC to get ready to pull it out of the donor car.

I have also done a trial fit on the seats out of my donor car. The seats are a very tight fit. I think that they will work. Won't know for sure until I get some mounting brackets made. No pictures of the seats in the midget yet

Still have lots of non swap stuff to do. Redoing the front suspension next week. Been waiting for parts to arrive.

The saga continues

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DBGaither Avatar
DBGaither Gold Member Douglas Gaither
Clovis, CA, USA   USA
1966 MG MGB
1973 MG MGB "The Six"
1973 MG MGB "Clyde"
Hey Chuck,

I only have MGB's, but it's nice to follow other swaps. Thanks for posting.

Doug

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MikeFiacre51 Mike Newman
Shrewsbury, Shropshire, UK   GBR
That looks a good rad option. I am currently doing a Vauxhall/Opel/GM 1800 Ecotech into a Midget. I may try a source a Toyota rad!

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mickri Chuck Losness
Squaw Valley, CA, USA   USA
Mike,
My donor car is a 1982 Toyota Corolla SR5 hatchback.


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Boze Avatar
Boze Silver Member Rick Bosak
Twin Cities, MN, USA   USA
1966 Austin-Healey Sprite "Time Machine"
Chuck I think you have chosen an excellent swap drive line. My Toyota 4AGE swap was similar, in fact I'm using the SR5 trans. You might want to consider mating the earlier tail housing to that 5 speed trans, it will move the shifter location forward 4 or 5 inches. This allows you to move the engine way back (as long as you ditch the heater/battery shelf) Might be hard to find one but easier in CA than here in MN. 1975-1979 Toyota Corolla transmission tail housing, shift forks, shift lever (lever straightened) Just an option to consider once you do an engine test fit.

The other issue to be aware of is the header and steering shaft. We ended up building one that goes around the steering shaft. Enjoy the journey.



66 Sprite, "though she be but little, she is fierce"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-14 10:57 AM by Boze.


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mickri Chuck Losness
Squaw Valley, CA, USA   USA
Rick,
I have already found one short tailshaft housing. The seller won't separate the tailshaft from the T40 transmission and he wants $200 plus shipping. I can't fault him for not wanting to separate. I was reading on a corolla forum yesterday about changing a long tailshaft to a short tailshaft and it sounded like you needed parts from the short tailshaft transmission to be able to make the swap. I'll have to study it some more. Might have to buy a whole transmission.

Made an interesting discovery this morning when I removed the shift lever from the transmission. The long tailshaft shift lever is bent backwards towards the rear of the car and it is reversible. Reversing the shift lever moves the top of the lever 6 to 8 inches forward. Don't know if that will be enough of a difference or if reversing the lever will cause other problems. I am not planning on trying to get the engine as far back as possible because I would like the battery to be in the stock location. According to the website I am using as a guide for my swap it sounds like only the heater has to go. The battery will be ok.

I will have to make an exhaust header. I have a picture of a 72 midget with the same engine and it looks like he did what you did with two pipes going over the steering shaft. I have been researching how long the pipes should be and the diameter of the pipes. I know there are formulas for this. Haven't found them yet but I will.

Another interesting thing is that it looks like if I weld a plate on the top of the stock motor mounts and then flip them upside down I'll have motor mounts. I will have to trim off the outboard portion of the stock mount.

The saga continues


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mickri Chuck Losness
Squaw Valley, CA, USA   USA
Took the transmission out of the Toyota after lunch. There is a 7 inch difference from the top of the bell housing to the top of the shift nob between the stock position and the forward position with the shift lever reversed. The pictures are with the shift lever in neutral. Looking at Boze's pictures the shift nob seems to be in about the same position with the shift lever reversed compared to the short tailhousing. Might not need the short tailhousing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-14 05:13 PM by mickri.


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mickri Chuck Losness
Squaw Valley, CA, USA   USA
I had previously done a scale 3D drawing of the engine bay of my midget. Took a whole bunch of measurements off of the 3TC engine and transmission and now have a 3D scale drawing of the engine and transmission. Mated the two together and I can now move the engine and transmission around to see how it fits in different positions. One thing that I discovered when taking my measurements is that the stock corolla transmission cross member is the same width as the distance between the seat mounting holes. The attached picture shows the cross member bolted through the seat mounting holes. This is too for back and I will have to drill holes about 3 inches or so forward to put the cross member in the correct position. Won't drill those holes until I decide where to place the engine.

I really don't want the oil pan being the lowest point on the car. Keeping the bottom of the oil pan the same height as the bottom of the frame places the engine higher in the car. Maybe too high. I don't think that the hood will clear the engine with the engine this high. On the plus side the transmission almost clears the cross member. I would only need to notch the cross member by 1 inch for transmission clearance. Easier that removing the cross member and fabricating a new cross member. See drawing below.

The web site that I am following on how to do my swap has the oil pan 1 1/2 inches below the frames rails. With the engine in this position I would have to remove the cross member. The website give instructions on fabricating the a replacement cross member. See drawing below.

Both of these drawings have the engine placed 1 inch behind the front cross member.

Any suggestions on where to place the engine?


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Boze Avatar
Boze Silver Member Rick Bosak
Twin Cities, MN, USA   USA
1966 Austin-Healey Sprite "Time Machine"
Lots to consider and as nice as the computer stuff is nothing beats a real life test fit, it will save you time in the end. My oil pan hangs down also, it's about as low as the exhaust pipe. I have built kind of a mini skid plate for my exhaust pipe. My tow rings are my clearance early warning system. I plan to mount some skid rails to the frame rails on both sides to protect the pan but so far have not scraped it. I'm thinking about having the oil pan shortened and then modify the oil pick-up. I've also heard that there are some cast aluminum pans available that are shorter. My other option was to raise the engine but that would have required a higher tunnel and a hood bulge. Unless yours is going to be a track car raising the engine center of gravity a small amount would be ok if you could live with a hood bulge, but you also have to consider the drive shaft path to the rear axle. Relocating the cross member may be the key to make it all work. Photo of my removable cross member.



66 Sprite, "though she be but little, she is fierce"


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nonracer Gold Member Steve Codianni
AZ, USA   USA
I positioned my engine so the oil pan is about 3/8" higher than the original pan , my crank pulley is about 3-1/2" behind the steering rack cross member. I needed to move the engine back as far as possible to clear the hood ( I don't think it does but thats ok ) . Real life mock is the best way to determine the best location for the engine/ trans.

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mickri Chuck Losness
Squaw Valley, CA, USA   USA
I am hoping to do my first test fit on Saturday.

Rick thanks for all of the pictures. They help a lot. You did an awesome job on your swap. I saw that you have removed the bottom of the driveshaft tunnel. I recall reading somewhere that you needed to keep that for structural strength. Did you add something to compensate for removing the bottom of the tunnel?

Steve thanks for the info on your engine placement. Your swap is awesome too. I should not need to put a bump in the hood. I will if I have to. I would rather have a bump in the hood verses having the oil pan be the first point of contact.

Since I know that I will need to make headers I have spent several evenings over the last couple of weeks researching the design of headers. I found lots of info on typical 4 into 1 header design and not much at all on 4 - 2 - 1 Tri Y headers that I will have to use to clear the steering shaft Some of the online calculators gave some really screwy results. The funniest recommended 15/16" ID tubes that were over 6 feet long. What I have tentatively decided on is 1 3/8 OD primary tubing up to the "Y" then 1 5/8 OD secondary tubing to a 1 7/8 collector with a total length of 50". Where to place the "Y" is still undecided. I read one rule of thumb is 2/3 primary 1/3 secondary. Another website hinted that the primary length should be based on top end with the remaining length going to the secondary. I might increase the tubing OD by 1/8" to 1 1/2, 1 3/4 and 2 inches. The 4 to 1 headers for a 3TC that I have found specs on use 1 1/2 OD tubing to a 2" collector. For comparison the stock exhaust is a Tri Y with 1 1/8, 1 7/16 and 1 3/4 Total length is approximately 36" with the distance to the Y averaging around 7". Everything I have read says it is better to error on being too small and too long rather than too large and too short. Being too large and short quickly destroys bottom end performance. I know that I am over thinking this and what I end up with will most likely be dictated by how the tubing has to be routed. Fun nevertheless.


After posting the above I did the math for a top end header. Turns out that the tubing length for a top end header is very close to 2/3 of the length that I had calculated for my Tri Y header. So I will go with 2/3 primary 1/3 secondary tubing lengths.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 09:50 AM by mickri.

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Boze Avatar
Boze Silver Member Rick Bosak
Twin Cities, MN, USA   USA
1966 Austin-Healey Sprite "Time Machine"
Chuck we added a lot of tunnel strength on the top side, hopefully that will be enough. Also the roll bar adds some side-to-side stiffness. I like your research on the headers, we did mostly "visual" research but I am very pleased with the power output.



66 Sprite, "though she be but little, she is fierce"


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mickri Chuck Losness
Squaw Valley, CA, USA   USA
Rick

My roll bar looks very similar to yours with similar mounting points. I plan to keep as much of the bottom of the tunnel as possible. I might relocate the emergency brake to the top of the tunnel using the emergency brake from my donor car. Or relocate the stock emergency brake higher up on the tunnel like you did. I am trying to use the seats out of my donor car. They are a very tight fit and I may not be able to reach the emergency brake in the stock location.

The header research was fun. I like intellectual challenges and figuring stuff out. Fabricating the header will be challenging. I may end up tacking it in place and then going to a muffler shop to have it welded together.

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mickri Chuck Losness
Squaw Valley, CA, USA   USA
The first trial fit went Ok. I got the engine within about 1 1/2" of where I would like it to go. The only obstructions so far is on the passenger foot well. I will need a cut out for the throw out arm and maybe the slave cylinder. And I might have to pound a small dimple in the driver foot well to clear the bell housing where the starter is. Long day. Goes pretty slow when you are working by yourself and trying to jockey engine and the car at the same time to get things to line up.

Looks like my idea to flip the stock motor mounts upside down will work for motor mounts. It is also looking like I won't have to have part of the exhaust header go over the steering shaft. However it might be easier to install and remove the header if two of the pipes go over the steering shaft. That's a project for another day.

I will have pictures of everything tomorrow.

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mickri Chuck Losness
Squaw Valley, CA, USA   USA
I have the 3TC sitting in place on blocks. I will have to do some surgery on the passenger foot well to provide clearance for the slave cylinder and throw out bearing arm. I was expecting this. The front of the engine is sitting about one inch high due to a water passage on the bottom of the intake manifold that slightly interferes with the top of the passenger foot well.. I will mill that off and block the holes in the manifold where it meets up to the head if I go with the OEM manifold. Otherwise no unexpected issues with the motor fitting in the engine bay. Once in final position the bottom of the oil pan will be pretty much in even with the bottom of the frame rails which is what I wanted.

Everything clears the hood except for the OEM air filter housing. That may clear once I have lowered the engine to its final position.

In looking at the shift lever placement I don't think reversing the shift lever will solve that issue. So I am back on the hunt for a short tailshaft housing. I'll find one.

Going back to the intake manifold and carbs. The easiest and simplest thing to do would be to replace the OEM smog carb with a Weber 32/36. Adapters are readily available for installing a Weber 32/36 on the OEM manifold. In researching my options on carbs and manifolds I have learned that the OEM manifold flows pretty good for a basically stock motor and there is no need to go to an after market manifold.

Another option is going to twin side draft Weber's. Would look cool but way too much carb for a stock motor and major surgery required to the passenger foot well. Won't go that route.

There four other options. 1. EFI. Have no interest in that. 2. Single side draft Weber. This is a possibility. Manifolds are available but hard to find. 3 Two SU carbs from a Datsun 1600 or 2000 roadster. I am seriously considering this. The look of twin SU carbs would fit nicely with a MG Midget. Would look like a stock motor I would have to build a manifold. . A lot easier than building an exhaust header. And 4. Four SU carbs from a 1098. I already have two and finding two more at a reasonable price shouldn't hard. I would have to build a manifold. Again not that difficult. The cool factor would be way up there IMHO.

The three best options for me are a stock manifold with a Weber 32/36, two SU's from a Datsun or four SU's. What should I do?


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