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Inexpensive Fuel Injection

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Jim Blackwood Avatar
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8
Gunpowder Rd, Florence, KY, USA   USA
So... speaking of inexpensive fuel injection...
I just got back from the Pick-n-pull where I acquired two GM ...411 controllers complete with connectors and about 2 ft of wire each for $100. Or $50 each. I like spare parts.

Before I went I looked at some of the tuning software and was impressed with what I saw. I've also been on one of the forums asking about retrofitting it. I may need to find another more targeted forum.

Anyway, you guys know me, I've been in the vanguard of EFI well, practically as long as there has Been EFI and I think this one looks pretty good. Mind you I haven't gone deeply into it yet so there could be some surprises but so far nothing insurmountable. It looks very tunable right from your laptop.

First, it is quick and dead easy to get. All one needs is a good set of wire cutters. The long handled side cutters work well. Donors are basically any full sized GM truck or SUV from 2001 to 2003. Open the hood and it's in the right front corner inside a black plastic housing (no, not the fuse box, in front and lower than that). You can pry the cover off, pop a metal clip, pry up a plastic latch and it comes right out. Cut the wires and you've got it. About 5 minutes. Look for "411" at the end of the part number. Done. Pay the cashier. The yard is lousy with them.

What's it look like? Well, pretty big to start with but that is a good thing. More surface area to get rid of heat. Maybe I'll post a pic or two if I get the chance. Sort of a cast aluminum case with an aluminum sheetmetal cover on one side.

Now the biggest issue I see so far is the crankshaft reluctor wheel which is rather complex. Mounting, indexing, and sensing that is not an especially trivial thing but I'll know more about that later.

Here's what I figure. The die hard Gen 1 SBC guys are bound to have figured out how to use this by now, so all I have to do is find the right source and they can just tell me.

Jim

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scott68B Avatar
scott68B Scott Costanzo
Central, OH, USA   USA
1968 MG MGB "GM 5.3 LS4 V8"
Jim,

I think you can configure it to use something like 4 or 6 pulse crank sensor.

Scott


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Jim Blackwood Avatar
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8
Gunpowder Rd, Florence, KY, USA   USA
Thanks Scott, could be. Probably I should get one of the tuning softwares downloaded and installed then see if I can find my way around it. I think I have 3 names to look at.

Jim

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Jim Blackwood Avatar
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8
Gunpowder Rd, Florence, KY, USA   USA
I found one reference that gave the OD of the 24x reluctor wheel as ~7-1/8". This is just about ideal for use with an external pickup, as it can be bored to remove the unbalanced center and then fitted to the damper/pulley assembly. Should make for a very easy setup once the degreeing information is known. A cam sensor is also required. Buick used one in the DIS V6, they are still available but expensive at around $250, or you can cut down a stock distributor as a couple of us have done and add the pickup. Reluctor wheels can be had for about $30 any day off ebay. The software does include a timing offset parameter, which should allow minor adjustments for the pickup position I would expect.

This system of course supports sequential and COP, as well as transmission control, fan control and other typically modern items, and is self teaching. Tuning mods are flashed rather than requiring chip changes. It'll take awhile to sort out the best software to use in terms of cost, ease, documentation, versatility, and of course cost. The LS tuning community appears to be very deep and wide as you would expect. However that doesn't mean that finding specific technical information such as for instance a CAD drawing of the 24x reluctor wheel or how that signal is interpreted by the ECM is easy. The hardware (ECM etc) is of course the very best available.

Jim

V8MGBV8 Avatar
V8MGBV8 Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN, USA   USA
Flash-Based Factory PCMs - Tech - In A Flash (GM)

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/0704gm-factory-pcms/

56 pages of "411" Tuning.

http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3240



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-29 08:09 AM by V8MGBV8.

mgbgts Avatar
mgbgts Rob Meier
Johnstown Ohio, USA   USA
Jim, HP Tuners seems to be the most popular tuner for the GM stuff and I have heard it is user friendly. I tuner I watch on YouTube (fasterproms) really likes it, and in a video he posted in the last week he explained why he likes it while tuning with it comparing it to others


He's working on a BMW he recently acquired and starting around 11 min, he's basically saying how much harder that is to work with and why he likes Hp over others he's used for American stuff.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-29 08:35 AM by mgbgts.

V8MGBV8 Avatar
V8MGBV8 Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN, USA   USA
Also, EFILive, LS1Edit, & Tunercats.

Jim Blackwood Avatar
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8
Gunpowder Rd, Florence, KY, USA   USA
Well, I'm not so sure about HPTuners. One of their staff told a customer right on one of their forum threads who accidentally lost $100 by downloading the wrong file that it was just too bad for him, it was his own fault, and they don't do refunds. I know this, I read the thread and the comments.

I'm not really sure I want to get mixed up with an outfit like that.

Jim

mgbgts Avatar
mgbgts Rob Meier
Johnstown Ohio, USA   USA
i personality haven't heard feedback good or bad about their customers service, but I also wouldn't discount a whole company due to one bad experience as even the best can have someone in place at times that's not so great ( or just having a bad day), look at Moss, most on here praise them and they do usually try hard with good customer service, but there are accounts on here of bad experiences. Now, if those stories are common with few rebuttals, then I would steer clear. If the product proves to be good, a bad customer experience here and there that I hear about wouldn't stop me from using it unless it's pretey blatant. Every story does have a second side and sometime that other side shows some surprising things.

Jim Blackwood Avatar
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8
Gunpowder Rd, Florence, KY, USA   USA
Quite right Rob. Don't know what I was thinking. I understand they are rather expensive though, so not a good fit with "Inexpensive EFI" right? Scott tells me Tuner Pro is free so I'll look at that next. If it will allow me to configure the settings to match my engine it might be a good starting point even with the existing maps (one is a Silverado and the other is a Suburban, Camaro might be closer especially with the dual fans).

I ordered the reluctor, it'll be here in a couple days. About $32 from Summit.

Now, there will be other sensors and whatnot and they have to match the GM bits. Biggest expense among those will be the COP setup, then a MAF if you run one (I will not) then things like a MAP sensor, trigger sensor, connectors and such generally in the range of $10-15 each. They do add up but there are not that many of them. However unlike the MS where you can select from a list or even map your own, as I understand it you are pretty much stuck with the stock sensors unless they just happen to have the same values as a competing part. Which I hope turns out to be the case for my TPS. But we will see.

Jim

V8MGBV8 Avatar
V8MGBV8 Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN, USA   USA
In reply to # 3882597 by Jim Blackwood Well, I'm not so sure about HPTuners. One of their staff told a customer right on one of their forum threads who accidentally lost $100 by downloading the wrong file that it was just too bad for him, it was his own fault, and they don't do refunds. I know this, I read the thread and the comments.

I'm not really sure I want to get mixed up with an outfit like that.


Well, can't let people have the software for free because of an "accident". Could start a trend. winking smiley

Then, there is this:

"I am also working with Jerry from Superior Design Concepts. He already produces exactly what I am looking for in regard to the balancer/reluctor setup. It looks like a real trick piece. The interesting part about it, is that he build them for MOPAR guys in Australia! So I am told guys in Australia love HpTuners and Stock 0411 ECUs and have been retrofitting them onto older big block mopars for years."

Jim Blackwood Avatar
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8
Gunpowder Rd, Florence, KY, USA   USA
Thanks to Carl's help it looks like we probably now know how to align the trigger wheel (reluctor). In the side view of the ring there is one small hole that is used for alignment, it's the smallest hole in the piece. You line that hole up with the pickup with #1 cylinder at TDC and that's it. Pretty simple. IDK why everybody had to make it sound so complicated.

But now there IS an issue with using the OEM style reluctor. In the original engine it is used as a balancing element. I mean, just look at the holes in that thing. If you're going to use it as-is you will need to have your damper rebalanced or else plug those holes. I vote for either removing or plugging the holes myself as that will be much quicker but I have a lathe I can use to make precision plugs and a tig welder to fix them in place, as well as a rotary table for attaching the ring to my damper spacer. But there are plenty of ways to skin this cat, limited only by your imagination. Some will be better than others but most should work. Make sure you have no more than .010" runout and you should be fine.

So far the most expensive part of fitting up this system is going to be on the fueling side. (also the coils but you can get a set of those with mounting plates for $150 or less) The intake with injector ports, the fuel rails, and the pump and plumbing. With the 215/Rover an acceptable intake is ready at hand, otherwise you might have to roll your own. I've done that a number of times now in various ways and it can be done but it does run the cost up. So when all is said and done you might be able to fit this system for less than a TBFI and you might not. Pretty much depends on what you start with and how handy you are.

Jim

V8MGBV8 Avatar
V8MGBV8 Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN, USA   USA
V8MGBV8 Avatar
V8MGBV8 Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN, USA   USA
In reply to # 3881568 by B-racer I don't know anyone who would pick the MSD system over these two options, if they have any experience tuning.

Mike Moor is installing an MSD Atomic on his Buick 300 & Graham Creswick is going FiTech on his 302 Ford, so we will have their input. as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-02-09 05:20 PM by V8MGBV8.

nonracer Gold Member Steve Codianni
AZ, USA   USA
The Z28 I built with a 383” small block Chevy using the Holley Sniper has around 750 miles on it . The owner has informed me that it’s running great with the only problem is it seems to run a little rich at first start up . We still haven’t gone into the advanced tuning yet , I’m sure we can correct it once we tune it a little more .

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