An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy : Modern MGs Forum : MG Experience Forums : The MG Experience

An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #1
Rich in Vancouver Rich McKie Steveston, B.C., Canada 1996 MG F "Andy" ~ For Sale ! ~ 1997 MG F "VVC"	Posted: June 14, 2012 09:31PM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,398

Good ol' Andy Knowing that a new MGF is on it's way Andy gave me an early Father's Day Gift.......
The gift of MAYO sad smiley

He has been running just a little lumpy the last couple of days, and today, less than a kilometer from home
the low coolant alarm went off. No overheating or any other indications of trouble so I brought him home easy.
When I checked the water level it was down almost to the bottom of the header tank. I looked under the car for leaks...
None. eye rolling smiley

I took off the engine cover, no obvious leaks. eye rolling smiley

Pulled the plugs, Number one had a thin coating of black,
the rest were sparkling clean....almost like they had been steam cleaned. eye rolling smiley

The oil on thje dipstick looked just fine,
The oil filler cap on the head was clean with just a few drops of...moisture. eye rolling smiley

Now that the engine was cool I pulled
the water cap, and...The Dreaded Mayo! eye popping smiley

I just brought the "MGF Emergency Bits" box down from the attic so it looks like Father's Day weekend will be spent doing
the head gasket, and because the engine will be apart, the cam belt and water pump as well.

Happy Father's Day Guys! smileys with beer

Modern MGs aren't just Transportation, They're a Hobby!

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #2
Simon Austin Surrey, BC, Canada 1977 MG MGB V8 Conversion 1994 MG RV8	Posted: June 14, 2012 10:22PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 8,233

Too bad, Rich.

I think I've asked it before of you F owners but here goes; why wait for this issue to manifest itself? Unless you know for a fact it's been done already, why not just do the HG and be done with it?

Just asking.

"Speed costs........how fast you want to spend?"

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #3
Rich in Vancouver Rich McKie Steveston, B.C., Canada 1996 MG F "Andy" ~ For Sale ! ~ 1997 MG F "VVC"	Posted: June 14, 2012 11:20PM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,398

They don't always go.
It's the old maxim, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

If I had been going on a North American tour like Steve did I probably would have done the gasket first
but I seldom go outside the 160km radius of my auto club recovery service so I let it ride, and as it happens it went
a block from home.
On the positive side this will force me to do the timing belt change I have been putting off.
The damage when the belt goes is much worse that a HG failure.

Modern MGs aren't just Transportation, They're a Hobby!

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #4
Simon Austin Surrey, BC, Canada 1977 MG MGB V8 Conversion 1994 MG RV8	Posted: June 15, 2012 01:39AM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 8,233

Still, it's a known fact the HGF is common with these engines. Personally, I'd just get it done or have proof it was done and not worry about it.

One day you will venture outside the 160km limit, Rich. You'll be glad to know this job has been done. You were lucky it happened so close to home. Most of the time parts fail in the most inconvenient places.

"Speed costs........how fast you want to spend?"

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #5
Mark Jones SW, Ontario, Canada 1970 Triumph Spitfire MkIII 1995 MG F "Barney"	Posted: June 15, 2012 05:57AM Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 3,139

Ah man, that's too bad, sorry to hear this Rich. But hey, you may very well be the first in Canada to do a HG replacement. Don't you feel special now? I know John and I will be interested to read and see how it goes for you. Are you using the uprated HG or the multilayer HG?

W.R.T. to HGF, I spoke with Roger Parker about this and he says that there are some early cars still driving around with the original HG. HG failure is more prevalent with 1995-2000 cars and that the incidence of HGF drops off when the redesigned HG was used on the later MGFs. The TFs are are even less prone to HGF due to the PRT setup. If the car would have had the thermostat on the oulet side of the engine I bet HGF would have been much less right from the beginning.

Too bad more of the Canadian F owners weren't on this forum to share their experiences.

Canadian Modern MG Rover Car Club - www.cmmgrcc.org

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2012 08:25AM by Mark Jones.

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #6
terreneuve John Stevenson Paradise, Paradise, near Octagon Pond!!!(Yes, really!!!), Canada 1952 MG TD 1967 MG MGB GT 1968 MG MGC 1986 Land Rover Defender 110 1995 MG F → more	Posted: June 15, 2012 06:38AM Registered: 3 years ago Posts: 571

That sucks Rich, but at least with the low coolant alarm it wasn't left to overheat!!

Did you notice the temp guage go up?

We all have to keep in mind that these cars are at least 15 years old, and unlike Vancouvers kind climate many cars in Canada that are used every day don't live to their 15th birthday, at least not on the east coast!!

When you think about it, its not really an expensive repair and can be done in less than a day, so not as catastrophic as some people make it out to be!!

Get lots of piccies and keep us informed!!! smileys with beer

Saw a great statement on a LR site that I am on: "Rover Broke? - Call a Bloke!"

John

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2012 06:54AM by terreneuve.

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #7
Rich in Vancouver Rich McKie Steveston, B.C., Canada 1996 MG F "Andy" ~ For Sale ! ~ 1997 MG F "VVC"	Posted: June 15, 2012 08:53AM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,398

I don't know about "Less than a day" in my case John!....But we'll see.
The temp didn't go up at all. The first thing I did when the alarm went off was check the guages
and they stayed where they should have been all the way home.
I am using one of the MLS (Multi-layer, Shim) gaskets and hope that it will do the trick.
I have my pile of parts out on the table ready to go so I have no excuses!

Mark, Thanks for the e-mail. Roger's info will be a big help. I will also have to dig through my MG Enthusiast magazines to
find the article they did on HGF. If I recall it was a good one.

I will keep you guys posted...Wish me luck! smiling smiley

Modern MGs aren't just Transportation, They're a Hobby!

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #8
Rich in Vancouver Rich McKie Steveston, B.C., Canada 1996 MG F "Andy" ~ For Sale ! ~ 1997 MG F "VVC"	Posted: June 16, 2012 11:26PM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,398

Iron clad proof your Head Gasket has Failed...........

The chocolate milk is Castrol Syntec with under 1k miles on it. sad smiley

Note the brown floaties in the coolant.
That's $50.00 worth of fluids down the drain (So to Speak!)

More chocolate milk

Modern MGs aren't just Transportation, They're a Hobby!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2012 11:31PM by Rich in Vancouver.

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #9
Rich in Vancouver Rich McKie Steveston, B.C., Canada 1996 MG F "Andy" ~ For Sale ! ~ 1997 MG F "VVC"	Posted: June 16, 2012 11:49PM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,398

It was a good day's progress on Andy's Head Gasket Failure.
I decided to change the timing belt, tensioner and the water pump while I had things apart.
After checking out a number of ways of doing the job I decided to do it the MG Enthusiast way,
(Timing Belt July 2008 issue, HG May 2011 issue) They do it with the intake manifold attached
which seems to be a big time saver. Everything came apart the way it should and I even discovered
an easy way to undo the R/H motor mount. This may work for you next time Mark! with the head and manifold
out of the way you have lots of room to get the big bar in there. I do have to admit that the last guy who did
a belt change used anti-sieze on the bolts. Thanks Mate!

Once the head was off I was happy to find that the head face and the block face were in great shape.
It won't need machining which is nice. The water pump went on without issues but things didn't go so well with the
timing belt and tensioner. It turns out t hat the belt and tensioner I had on hand for the last year was for
an auto tensioner car. Damn! angry smiley

Of course it's way too late to return it, and I have already ordered the correct
non-auto belt from Rimmers via UPS so I should have it by mid week.
In the meantime tomorrow I will put together what I can.
Happy Father's Day Guys! smileys with beer

Modern MGs aren't just Transportation, They're a Hobby!

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #10
Simon Austin Surrey, BC, Canada 1977 MG MGB V8 Conversion 1994 MG RV8	Posted: June 17, 2012 01:55AM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 8,233

Look at you go having all the fun. winking smiley

All I did yesterday was unclog one of my windshield washer jets. Now I've got all 4 firing!

"Speed costs........how fast you want to spend?"

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #11
terreneuve John Stevenson Paradise, Paradise, near Octagon Pond!!!(Yes, really!!!), Canada 1952 MG TD 1967 MG MGB GT 1968 MG MGC 1986 Land Rover Defender 110 1995 MG F → more	Posted: June 17, 2012 06:26AM Registered: 3 years ago Posts: 571

In reply to # 2095676 by Rich in Vancouver It was a good day's progress on Andy's Head Gasket Failure.
I decided to change the timing belt, tensioner and the water pump while I had things apart.
After checking out a number of ways of doing the job I decided to do it the MG Enthusiast way,
(Timing Belt July 2008 issue, HG May 2011 issue) They do it with the intake manifold attached
which seems to be a big time saver. Everything came apart the way it should and I even discovered
an easy way to undo the R/H motor mount. This may work for you next time Mark! with the head and manifold
out of the way you have lots of room to get the big bar in there. I do have to admit that the last guy who did
a belt change used anti-sieze on the bolts. Thanks Mate!

Once the head was off I was happy to find that the head face and the block face were in great shape.
It won't need machining which is nice. The water pump went on without issues but things didn't go so well with the
timing belt and tensioner. It turns out t hat the belt and tensioner I had on hand for the last year was for
an auto tensioner car. Damn! angry smiley

Of course it's way too late to return it, and I have already ordered the correct
non-auto belt from Rimmers via UPS so I should have it by mid week.
In the meantime tomorrow I will put together what I can.
Happy Father's Day Guys! smileys with beer

Did you check the liner height against the block face? I have a spare belt here but being the weekend you will probably get the one from Rimmers just as fast!

Happy Fathers Day!!

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #12
Rich in Vancouver Rich McKie Steveston, B.C., Canada 1996 MG F "Andy" ~ For Sale ! ~ 1997 MG F "VVC"	Posted: June 17, 2012 12:22PM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,398

Liner height is fine John, just a couple of thou. Everything is looking good (Fingers Crossed!)
It appears that it was a simple head gasket failure. I think it had the original head gasket
along with the plastic locating dowels, one of which was quite sloppy fitting.
The gasket did last for over 91,000 miles which, if you ask me is pretty darn good.

Here's the failure

Modern MGs aren't just Transportation, They're a Hobby!

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #13
Rich in Vancouver Rich McKie Steveston, B.C., Canada 1996 MG F "Andy" ~ For Sale ! ~ 1997 MG F "VVC"	Posted: June 18, 2012 12:17AM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,398

Here's a short update. It's Sunday evening and the head is back on, manifolds are on with new gaskets,
most hoses, pipes and electrical connectors are hooked up, and the timing gears are back on using
Mike Satur's uprated bolts. The only snag was when I installed the gears before fitting the timing cover backplate. D'oh!
I had the future son-in-law helping with the head lifting and torquing and really enjoyed working with him.
It was nice doing a bit of male bonding on Father's Day!
I'll get the rest of the ancillaries sorted out tomorrow after work ready for the arrival of the proper timing belt
and tensioner.

Modern MGs aren't just Transportation, They're a Hobby!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2012 08:33AM by Rich in Vancouver.

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #14
Mark Jones SW, Ontario, Canada 1970 Triumph Spitfire MkIII 1995 MG F "Barney"	Posted: June 18, 2012 06:16AM Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 3,139

Rich,

I didn't have a problem getting a socket and breaker bar onto the bolt heads, the problem was due to the bolt head being rounded to the socket breaking due to the galvanic corrosion between dissimilar metals.

Plastic dowels, that's certainly the original HG then. Over 91,000 miles on the original HG is very good.

Glad to hear that it went well. I'd be interested to know what the "MG Enthusiast" way is.

Canadian Modern MG Rover Car Club - www.cmmgrcc.org

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2012 06:35AM by Mark Jones.

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #15
Mark Jones SW, Ontario, Canada 1970 Triumph Spitfire MkIII 1995 MG F "Barney"	Posted: June 19, 2012 06:46AM Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 3,139

Hey Rich, How hard was it removing the head with the intake manifold still attached? It seems to me that it would be a heavy, awkward lift/pullout procedure.

Canadian Modern MG Rover Car Club - www.cmmgrcc.org

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #16
Rich in Vancouver Rich McKie Steveston, B.C., Canada 1996 MG F "Andy" ~ For Sale ! ~ 1997 MG F "VVC"	Posted: June 19, 2012 08:45AM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,398

It wasn't bad at all. My guess is that the head/manifold weighs no more than 30 pounds.
No matter how you do it removal is much easier with two people. You have to tilt the front
of the head up as you bring it out. Once the manifold is clear you lift it straight up then
over the boot lid to the bench, or in my case a recycling box with a cardboard box on top!
Refitting is the reverse (as usual) but it is pretty much essential to have a helper for that.
The tough part is lining up the dowels in the block with the holes in the head. I found it was
best to have a finger over the hole so that you can feel when the dowel is in position. The way the head is shaped
it is hard to picture the position of the dowel from above and you don't want to be sliding the head around
on the dowel trying to find the hole as you could score the head.
Torquing is hard work as space to swing the wrench is limited. We did it as a team, one on either side of the car.
For those of us used to old tech MGs it is a very odd procedure. The first tightening is only to 15 foot pounds.
You then tighten the studs 180 degrees in sequence, then another 180. MGE had a great tip on marking each stud head
with a line pointing the same direction. When you finish they should all be pointing the same way. This was invaluable,
particularly when a neighbour wanders by and starts talking to you about his experiences working on his Datsun 310 while
you are trying to concentrate! angry smiley

Modern MGs aren't just Transportation, They're a Hobby!

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #17
Mark Jones SW, Ontario, Canada 1970 Triumph Spitfire MkIII 1995 MG F "Barney"	Posted: June 19, 2012 10:20AM Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 3,139

Thanks for the precedural explanation.

I have one of those neighbours. I tend to keep the garage door closed during delecate procedures. smiling smiley

Canadian Modern MG Rover Car Club - www.cmmgrcc.org

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #18
Simon Austin Surrey, BC, Canada 1977 MG MGB V8 Conversion 1994 MG RV8	Posted: June 19, 2012 10:23AM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 8,233

Datsun 310? A classic! I had one of those. May have to talk to your neighbour one day, Rich.

Good to hear the swap has gone reasonably well. Hopefully this will be the last time you ever have to do this job. thumbs up

"Speed costs........how fast you want to spend?"

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #19
Rich in Vancouver Rich McKie Steveston, B.C., Canada 1996 MG F "Andy" ~ For Sale ! ~ 1997 MG F "VVC"	Posted: June 19, 2012 08:53PM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,398

Trust me Simon,you don't want to talk to this guy! I think he had his 310 30 years ago and I'm sure the most technical
thing he did was slide another 8 track into the tape deck and maybe empty the ash tray. He is an expert though. eye rolling smiley

BTW: He drives a Miata now! moon

Modern MGs aren't just Transportation, They're a Hobby!

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Re: An Early Father's Day Gift From Andy #20
Rich in Vancouver Rich McKie Steveston, B.C., Canada 1996 MG F "Andy" ~ For Sale ! ~ 1997 MG F "VVC"	Posted: June 21, 2012 05:30PM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,398

Almost done! smiling smiley

My timing belt kit arrived late yesterday and I have been working on it today.
I think the timing belt is actually more difficult than changing the head gasket.
Of course you have to do the belt when you do the head so that's kind of academic.
It's not as bad as changing the gear cables but it's no fun at all. Things were so tight
getting at the tensioner assy and belt from the wheel well I had to remove the R/H shock absorber
to get enough room to get my arm in. I did learn some tricks the second time I did the belt,
(of course the first time it was one tooth out eye rolling smiley

That just about broke me!)Before the second
attempt I watched a video on Youtube which suggested loosening the tensioner mounting bolt right
off and that gave enough play that I was able to get the belt on much quicker. Amen!
Now the covers are on, fan belt is on, and I'm just taking a short lunch break before finishing.
More later!

Modern MGs aren't just Transportation, They're a Hobby!

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