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Copy of original MGC prototype #1
MGB65B Thomas Aczel Kurrajong Hts, Australia 1962 MG MGA MkII 1965 MG MGB "Dad's Little White Car"	Posted: April 20, 2012 05:24PM Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 1,558

Not owning an MGC, I don't normally come over here, but I thought this Australian advertised car might perhaps hold some interest for a few of you. Many of you may be aware that the original MGC prototype used an Australian sourced six cylinder engine, effectively "one and a half" B-series 1622cc engines, an engine that was in production in Australia for Australian market larger BMC sedans.
Apparently the MGC prototype performed extremely well, including being clocked at 124mph on the M1! I believe it was also less "front-heavy" than the eventual C-series engine based MGC, and generally showed a lot of promise. Obviously the Australian engine potentially could have been taken out to 2697cc, not that far short of the C-series engine that ultimately wound up being used. I don't know, but I suspect this installation could also have retained the original MGB front cross-member. All in all, yet another intriguing "might have been", or more probably "should have been".
Here's an Australian built version of that first MGC prototype that's come up for sale.
http://www.healeyfactory.com.au/productsb/_products_sub_group_details.asp?id=1240

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #2
Bob in Vancouver Bob Elwin Vancouver BC, Canada 1968 MG MGC 1969 MG MGC GT	Posted: April 21, 2012 12:55AM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 188

Thomas, Very interesting engine - with what appears to be siamesed inlet ports and presumably four main bearings. I guess with the C series already in existence there may have been some question of "why" - but perhaps BMC were already planning the 7 bearing version of the C series and didn't want competition!
When the revised 7 bearing version appeared - and turned out to be heavy and sluggish - they might have been further ahead with the Australian engine! Or else the OHC P-76 engine of a few years further on.
IMHO, so many decisions seemed to be just a year or two out of step with developments that many opportunities to produce more up to date cars were lost. Cheers, Bob.

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #3
kobym Koby Millo Tel-Aviv, Israel 1969 MG MGC	Posted: April 21, 2012 02:45AM Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 529

Thomas - thank you for the interesting link. I heard about this car in the past, but never saw a picture of it. I wonder how this conversion was engineered, especially regarding the front suspension of the car.
BTW - in this link there is another picture of the engine.

As far as I know, and also based on "The Mighty MG's" by Graham Robson, the Australian engine ("Blue Streak" ) was not chosen for the following reasons: It was only made in Australia, so BMC did not want to invest in a 2nd set of casting tools in the UK for an engine that would be used only in the MGC. Also, shipping the engines from down-under to the UK would be costly and complicated logistics-wise. I also read somewhere that the Blue-Streak in its Australian form reach the maximum potential of its tuning level, and could not be stretched any further unless its volume increased (and more tooling made...).
Last - I have never found any records of the "MGB mule with the 6 cyl. Australian engine" in any MG book I have read. It was only mentioned in few WEB pages, for example here: http://www.them-g-c.com/index_files/Page528.htm. I wonder if anyone has more information about it.

Thanks again,

Koby

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #4
MGB65B Thomas Aczel Kurrajong Hts, Australia 1962 MG MGA MkII 1965 MG MGB "Dad's Little White Car"	Posted: April 21, 2012 03:27AM Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 1,558

Bob, the two claimed reasons for not proceeding with using the Australian 6 cylinder engine in the MGC were that firstly the engine was nearing the end of its production life, and that secondly it would have been uneconomical to transport the engines from the other side of the world. The latter point of course is reasonable. The first I suspect is not, as, I'd imagine, that it would have been just as cost effective to develop a six cylinder version of an existing four cylinder engine already in production in the UK, (in four or seven bearing versions) as it was to so radically rework the old C-series engine.
As for the E-series overhead cam engine derivatives, these did not reach production till at least four years after the MGC introduction.

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #5
MGB65B Thomas Aczel Kurrajong Hts, Australia 1962 MG MGA MkII 1965 MG MGB "Dad's Little White Car"	Posted: April 21, 2012 03:34AM Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 1,558

Koby, I only saw your post after putting up mine. You appear to know at least as much, and more, about the Australian MGC connection as I do!
Coincidentally I'll be seeing an ex BMC(Australia) executive and production engineer tomorrow morning. If I can glean any further information from him relevant to this topic, I'll pass it on.

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #6
kirks-auto robert kirk Davenport, Iowa, Rock Island, Illinois, Clearwater, USA	Posted: April 21, 2012 03:04PM Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 13,091

Thanks for taking the time to broach the subject and discussion. While I personally have never seen any documentation, I suspect the overtures were already underway from Leyland...by the time the MGC actually came into production, its death knell was probably known by key management. Oddly, and I only mention it in passing, the MGB V8 would have been as good if not better car to move forward but it too seemed to fall victim to what were and were to become some very questionable management decisions.

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Robert Kirk
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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #7
MGB65B Thomas Aczel Kurrajong Hts, Australia 1962 MG MGA MkII 1965 MG MGB "Dad's Little White Car"	Posted: April 22, 2012 06:27AM Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 1,558

I spoke to my BMC (Australia) contact today re the MGC prototype 6 cylinder B-series based engine. He (John Lindsay) doesn't recall them sending a six cylinder engine from Australia to the UK for this purpose, and assumes that BMC in the UK would have had a few of these engines available, even though they weren't in production there. While we're getting off the subject a little, even though the B-series sixes were cast and assembled here in Australia from locally manufactured components, John Lindsay tells me the crankshafts and camshafts were imported from the UK for these engines.
For those interested, here's a link to some of the history of the so-called "Blue Streak" 6 cylinder engine and related Australian BMC vehicles:
http://www.bluestreaksix.com/pb/wp_a5002cc2/wp_a5002cc2.html

I also posted a similar post on this subject on the MGB forum. One respondent has seen the Australian car referred to, and it does indeed retain the original MGB front x-member.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2012 06:37AM by MGB65B.

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #8
twentyover Greg Fast Burbs of Detroit MI, USA	Posted: April 28, 2012 08:09PM Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 2,221

Looking at the picture of the engine from overhead, it appears to use the MGB frame rails and I think I see the bolts securing the MGB crossmember. So if one was interested, it may not be too much work to screw one together

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #9
FlashGumby Scott McGrath Boca Raton, Sunny South Florida, USA 1969 MG MGC "Madge"	Posted: April 30, 2012 11:33AM Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 503

Looks like it's running the same "slight downdraught" triple SU's that Graham talked about University Motors using for *their* specials back in the day.

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #10
kirks-auto robert kirk Davenport, Iowa, Rock Island, Illinois, Clearwater, USA	Posted: April 30, 2012 02:04PM Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 13,091

Nice catch Scott. Indeed those would be the Original Downton made manifolds.

Regards,
Robert Kirk
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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #11
bills Bill Spohn W. Vancouver, BC, Canada 1956 MG MGA 1958 MG MGA Twin-Cam 1962 MG MGA MkII Coupe 1965 Jensen CV8 1969 Lamborghini Countach → more	Posted: April 30, 2012 02:24PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 9,160

Unfortunately the factory never made the coolest MGC prototype they could have tried - on the Blue Streak engine, put 1 1/2 MGA Twin Cam heads welded or cast together to make a Jaguar lookalike! Now THAT would make an interesting car (and a big bonnet bulge, no doubt)

Bill Spohn www.rhodo.citymax.com/carstuff.html
1958 MGA Twincam (race car), 1962 MGA Deluxe Coupe
1969 MGC roadster, 1957 Jamaican MGA
1965 Jensen CV8, 1971 Jensen Interceptor
1969 Lamborghini Islero S, 1988 Fiero GT turbo
2009 Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe
West Vancouver BC

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #12
FlashGumby Scott McGrath Boca Raton, Sunny South Florida, USA 1969 MG MGC "Madge"	Posted: April 30, 2012 09:15PM Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 503

In reply to # 2054770 by bills Now THAT would make an interesting car

...and a gorgeous engine bay.

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #13
Big6Mark Mark Miller Springfield, OR, USA 1960 Austin-Healey 3000 1968 MG MGC "Red Tail" 1968 MG MGC 1968 MG MGC GT "The Wreck" 1969 MG MGC GT "The Lump"	Posted: May 03, 2012 11:20PM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 1,220

In all the books I can find there is no mention of the Blue Streak Six actually getting into an MG at the factory. Apparently the engine was considered as better than the old Austin C-series six, but was not easily enlarged to the Healey displacement so it was dropped.

Remember, the original reason that the MGC came about was the need to replace the old Healey with an updated design. Unfortunately the powers within BMC did not allow the MG designers to do what was truely needed to do that so the Healeys refused to be a part of it and the MGC clone was the only one to find production.

Too bad they are misleading buyers with the "factory prototype replica" idea. It is no different than an MGB with a Ford or Chevy V6 transplant. And probably not as good either.

And the triple manifolds are probably an Australian performance option. Look closer and you will notice that the head is a three siamesed-port design. Not something that would use an MGC Downton manifold.

C Ya,
Mark

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #14
kirks-auto robert kirk Davenport, Iowa, Rock Island, Illinois, Clearwater, USA	Posted: May 04, 2012 09:10AM Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 13,091

Mark
Its a good catch about the carbs and indeed it could not be the "Downton" C set up but sit at what can be said is the angle which Downton were first made for the C engine. I'll also suggest that the marketers are offering this in "tribute" to the prototype mock ups and not offering it as a copy of a prototype....as some may have implied or inferred.

As to Mr Spohn's suggestion, I've always been curious why the larger company BMC as well as the smaller Triumph/Standard failed to develop engines to successfully compete with Jaguar and Aston's DB engines.

Regards,
Robert Kirk
kirkbrit@yahoo.com
563 323 1017
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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #15
Big6Mark Mark Miller Springfield, OR, USA 1960 Austin-Healey 3000 1968 MG MGC "Red Tail" 1968 MG MGC 1968 MG MGC GT "The Wreck" 1969 MG MGC GT "The Lump"	Posted: May 04, 2012 03:41PM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 1,220

Money.

Simple and complete answer.

If they had the money they would have at least made the alloy racing cylinder head standard for the MGC. They had years of experience with alloy heads on the Austin-Healey competition cars. Even if the Austin Princess only got the cast iron head it would have been easy and a big improvement.

Other answer could be that they were losing ground in the technology. The engine should have been lighter, as promised, but they just couldn't do it with what they had at the time. The castings are thick, heavy and not consistent in thickness.

They were loosing ground, money, initiative, control, everything that made MG great in the '30's was sucking away into the BMC mess.

C Ya,
Mark

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #16
jafwasw Tom Edge Perth, Australia	Posted: May 25, 2012 07:28AM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 1

Hi guys

Just found and joined the forum. The original blue streak prototype is mentioned in "MG The untold story" by David Knowles (ISBN 1 85915 051 9).

P 104 has a few paragraphs about the prototype, including that some prototype engines were made in the uk by Morris and that one was used in a brown MGB roadster with a fabricated torsion bar front suspension.

The car was apparently registered BMO 340B

Knowles doesn't list his sources directly but does have quotes of a number of well known MG people of that period and their involvement with the prototype.

Considering the other information in the book (and photos, including the proposed front end treatment for the Healy 3000 Mk4, the badge engineered MGC that Donald Healy rejected) I would suspect his information is reliable.

Hope this is of interest

Tom

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #17
FlashGumby Scott McGrath Boca Raton, Sunny South Florida, USA 1969 MG MGC "Madge"	Posted: May 25, 2012 07:38AM Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 503

Way to jump into the forum with both feet, Tom.

Welcome to the group (and thanks for the info! (Wouldn't have any pics to scan in, would you? I love pictures.)).

-Scott

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #18
kobym Koby Millo Tel-Aviv, Israel 1969 MG MGC	Posted: November 05, 2012 02:57PM Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 529

In reply to # 2046229 by kobym I have never found any records of the "MGB mule with the 6 cyl. Australian engine" in any MG book I have read.

In reply to # 2057976 by Big6Mark In all the books I can find there is no mention of the Blue Streak Six actually getting into an MG at the factory.

In reply to # 2077143 by jafwasw The original blue streak prototype is mentioned in "MG The untold story" by David Knowles (ISBN 1 85915 051 9).

Hi,

I'm reviving a 6 months old thread in order to "close the loop" on this question… Was there an MGC prototype with the Blue Streak engine?
Well, one guy who should know better than most is Don Hayter, the designer of the MGB and later Chief Engineer of MG.
I just had the pleasure of reading his book "Don Hayter's MGB Story", and he relates to this prototype and to the tests it went through. Instead of quoting it all, I just scanned the relevant page. I hope he would forgive me for this slight copyright's infringement, if as a result of it some of you would buy this charming book smiling smiley

– a must for any MGB/MGC owner, IMHO.

Regards,

Koby

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2012 03:01PM by kobym.

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #19
Dandare Danny H Sydney, Australia	Posted: November 05, 2012 09:15PM Registered: 6 months ago Posts: 54

Hello there, thought I might just emerge from "lurking" to add a couple of comments to this topic if I may.

Alan Foy who worked for BMC (AUST) from 1957-1975 as, among other things, Road Testing Supervisor-Experimental Department and now involved with the Leyland Heritage Group here in Oz told me some months ago that he remembers and was involved in the supply of a Blue Streak Six to Britain for evaluation purposes.

I don't purport to be an expert on the Aussie six cylinder, but it's interesting to note that Don Hayter refers to it as a "2.6-litre six-cylinder" I believe the capacity of this engine changed from prototype stage to its production figure of 2433cc, but don't believe it ever officialy attained 2.6 litre status.

Love the enthusiasm and Knowledge on this forum.

Danny

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Re: Copy of original MGC prototype #20
kirks-auto robert kirk Davenport, Iowa, Rock Island, Illinois, Clearwater, USA	Posted: November 06, 2012 09:13AM Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 13,091

Welcome Danny! We appear to have a full contingent now from Australia! smileys with beer

<<<Murrays

Regards,
Robert Kirk
kirkbrit@yahoo.com
563 323 1017
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