IRS and Front Coil Overs : MG Motorsports Forum : MG Experience Forums : The MG Experience

IRS and Front Coil Overs #1
Frank J. Mooring Frank Mooring Rutherfordton, NC, USA	Posted: July 31, 2005 06:44PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 1,124

I am always searhing for ways to improve the handling and performance of my supercharged 79 MGB. Via the net I have come across the FastCar's front coil over suspension and Hoyle's independent rear suspension. Can the experts on this forum provide some comments regarding the pros and cons of these type of suspension improvements for a "B." My driving is primarilytwisty country roads although I am considering autocrossing.

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #2
Acmespeedshop	Posted: July 31, 2005 07:51PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 865

There aere a few folks out there making coil over set ups for MGB, but mosty are for racing with real low ride heights in mind. we make one for the Spridgets and it's for racing only as the recommended ride height is 2".

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #3
Frank J. Mooring Frank Mooring Rutherfordton, NC, USA	Posted: August 01, 2005 01:04PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 1,124

Hap,
Are you familiar with the original design front suspension by I believe FastCars out of Michigan that advertises it in Classic Motorsports. Dan Masters out of Tennessee has a V-8 B that he is having this and a Jag IRS installed on and I am trying to find out more about both conversions. What are your thoughts on IRS on a "B"? Thanks for any input you can offer.

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #4
autoist Tony Barnhill Gurley, Alabama, USA 1953 MG TD 1956 MG Magnette ZB 1959 MG MGA 1959 MG MGA Coupe 1960 MG Magnette MkIII → more	Posted: August 01, 2005 03:46PM Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 10,726

Any setup that requires you to use the original shock as the upper fulcrum is useless! Why not just rebuild the shock? & the coil setups that do away with the shock & use upper arms are expensive - trust me!

Tony Barnhill
Supplying Member: Used Parts for All MG's ~ New Parts for all LBC's
MOSS Distributor & VICTORIA BRITISH Dealer

MG's? YOU NAME 'EM, I GOT 'EM!
http://www.theautoist.com
--------
In addition to the MG's listed on the left:
1971 VW Karmann Ghia
1972 Norton 750 Commando Motorcycle
1973 VW Bug
1982 Mercedes 380SL
1985 Jaguar XJ6

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #5
Frank J. Mooring Frank Mooring Rutherfordton, NC, USA	Posted: August 02, 2005 11:45AM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 1,124

Tony,
I realize the set-ups are extremely expensive($3750) that is the main reason for the question. I am trying to better understand how these set-ups tranform the ride and handling of the car. BTW I have completely rebuilt my front and rear ends and its not that I am that unhappy with the results...I am just trying to understand better the next level one can take this car. I realize the purist would not necessarily agree it is still a "B" if one starts doing modifications like this and some would say just buy a Miata....I guess I like having something I am capable of working on and modifying...not something already done like the Miata.

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #6
Acmespeedshop	Posted: August 07, 2005 06:53PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 865

Frank, yes I've seen it, it too is advetised for racing only, has it's own custom crossmember. From what I've heard it too has a real low (racing) ride hieght in mind. I believe once your buddy with the V8 B get it's to a streetable ride hieght, then the geometry and bump steer is thrashed.

Tony, tell me about the one you have shown.

Here's a photo of our Spridget set-up

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acmefrtsusp2.JPG (28 KB) –

Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #7
autoist Tony Barnhill Gurley, Alabama, USA 1953 MG TD 1956 MG Magnette ZB 1959 MG MGA 1959 MG MGA Coupe 1960 MG Magnette MkIII → more	Posted: August 07, 2005 07:18PM Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 10,726

Mine came from Hawkes Engineering in the UK...Doug Jackson is their US distributor

Tony Barnhill
Supplying Member: Used Parts for All MG's ~ New Parts for all LBC's
MOSS Distributor & VICTORIA BRITISH Dealer

MG's? YOU NAME 'EM, I GOT 'EM!
http://www.theautoist.com
--------
In addition to the MG's listed on the left:
1971 VW Karmann Ghia
1972 Norton 750 Commando Motorcycle
1973 VW Bug
1982 Mercedes 380SL
1985 Jaguar XJ6

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #8
Frank J. Mooring Frank Mooring Rutherfordton, NC, USA	Posted: August 08, 2005 12:31PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 1,124

Thanks guys for all the post thus far......does anyone have anything to add about the pros and cons of an IRS set-up on a "b"?

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #9
danmas Dan Masters Alcoa, Tennessee, USA 1974 MG MGB GT "Powered By Ford"	Posted: August 08, 2005 02:25PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 1,205

Acmespeedshop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Frank, yes I've seen it, it too is advetised for
> racing only, has it's own custom crossmember.
> From what I've heard it too has a real low
> (racing) ride hieght in mind. I believe once your
> buddy with the V8 B get it's to a streetable ride
> hieght, then the geometry and bump steer is
> thrashed.
>
>

Acme,

Wrong on all counts. The suspension set up is designed for street use. Ride height is suitable for use on the street, and there are several owners using this setup for the street. Every one I've talked to is very much pleased with the unit. I have driven cars with it, and I am very much impressed as well.

Not only does this unit have a custom crossmember, virtually every thing else is custom as well. The only major off-the-shelf items are the brakes and the coil-overs. Everything else is either custom made to Ted's specs (steering rack and spindle) or made in house by Ted.

Frank,

As soon as I get my computer squared away, I'm going to send you some data on this unit.

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #10
mgadams Mike Adams Saskatchewan, Canada 1962 MG MGB "Super B"	Posted: August 09, 2005 08:54AM Registered: 9 years ago Posts: 543

Frank,
I have avoided getting into this thread, but you seem hungry for opinions, so I may as well add my two bits. Upgrades for performance handling is an expensive and time consuming proposition. For twisty road and autocross driving, I wonder why? My hats off to people that construct and renovate their cars to obtain the maximum performance, but if they don't apply their hard work to drive the car to it's full potential, isn't it a bit of a waste?
My MGB race car was very sucessful in it's career with only stiffened lever shocks and anti-tramp bars added to the rear-end. It was lowered and modified to run 13" race tires. It did not need front coil overs or an IRS to be successful. The car ran at its full potential and won many races. The twin weber cross-flow engine and the supercharged cross-flow engine did not overpower the suspension or brake set-up of the race car.
Go for it ... add the coil overs and IRS if you have the time, money and inclination. But make sure you use it and tweak the car to run the race tracks. It would be a shame to have all that great technology sitting under a street car.

Mike Adams

Mike

the SuperB the Blower

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #11
Frank J. Mooring Frank Mooring Rutherfordton, NC, USA	Posted: August 09, 2005 09:08AM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 1,124

Mike,
Thanks for your post.....I agree with much of what you have said...I guess a lot of the enjoyment I gain from my MGB is the satifaction of making a successful modification and then as you say driving it and finding out what she will do. I am still at the stage in my life where I have too many dependents to get into any serious racing ( although I fully realize that an accident in my B on the street could easily take my life). I am not a mechanic by trade and for me much of the pleasure and enjoyment is derived from what I learn while doing it in addition to the thrill of driving it.

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #12
danmas Dan Masters Alcoa, Tennessee, USA 1974 MG MGB GT "Powered By Ford"	Posted: August 09, 2005 10:31AM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 1,205

Hi, Mike,

You wrote: "My hats off to people that construct and renovate their cars to obtain the maximum performance, but if they don't apply their hard work to drive the car to it's full potential, isn't it a bit of a waste? "

No, not at all, absolutely not! There are many ways to derive joy from our cars. For some, it's spit and polish, for some it's maintaining originality, for some, it's pushing the car to its limit on the race track. For others, myself included, the greatest joy comes from the simple act of improving our cars, whether that improvement comes from maximizing speed, handling, appearance, comfort, or just making the car more suited to our own particular tastes.

I will never push my MGB to its limit on the street or on the track, but that won't stop me from enjoying all the modifications I'm making to it. Will it be worth it? Who can say, how do you measure worth? Why would anyone buy a Mercedes Benz when a Kia will do just as well?

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #13
Frank J. Mooring Frank Mooring Rutherfordton, NC, USA	Posted: August 09, 2005 01:20PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 1,124

Dan,
Nicely put and my feelings exactly! You were able to put into words the message I was wanting to express. I have done all my upgrades for all your reasons as well as for the pleasure and satisfaction of having done it myself. The sense of accomplishment I guess bumps up my endorphin levels cause I seem to keep pursuing new avenues to improve my car despite what others might see as a waste of time and money.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2005 02:00PM by Frank J. Mooring.

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #14
Acmespeedshop	Posted: August 10, 2005 11:28PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 865

danmas Wrote:
> Acme,
>
> Wrong on all counts. The suspension set up is
> designed for street use. Ride height is suitable
> for use on the street, and there are several
> owners using this setup for the street. Every one
> I've talked to is very much pleased with the unit.
> I have driven cars with it, and I am very much
> impressed as well.
>
> Not only does this unit have a custom crossmember,
> virtually every thing else is custom as well. The
> only major off-the-shelf items are the brakes and
> the coil-overs. Everything else is either custom
> made to Ted's specs (steering rack and spindle) or
> made in house by Ted.

Maybe I came to that conclusion because it is stated "built for racing" in thier ads in Classic Motorsports. I called and talked to Ted today after ours discussion, he sells the kit as "race only" because of the Willwood brakes and Wilwood not recommending thier product for the street, not meaning it won't work fine there, Just A willwood policy. After looking at the kit a little harder it wouldn't be legal for SCCA racing anyway, the Willwood brakes and custom crossmember both would be illegal in production classes. Most vintage racing groups would not approve of the kit due to thier purist approach, they are still going crazy over our original fender flares on a 30 year old factory race car and most groups don't even allow tube shocks much less coil overs. All in all though a very nice kit, well thought out and for his asking price of $3700 and change you get alot for the money with brakes and steering included. If you want the ultimate kit for your street car, it looks to be a very nice one. Sorry in previous post if I implied anything but.

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #15
danmas Dan Masters Alcoa, Tennessee, USA 1974 MG MGB GT "Powered By Ford"	Posted: August 11, 2005 04:01PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 1,205

Hap,

Thanks for looking into it further, and posting your findings back to the group. I really do believe it is a major improvement over stock.

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #16
TeamSanc	Posted: August 22, 2005 01:46PM Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 18

The Spridget setup shown in this thread looks nice, but what I don't understand about the 'B setup is why go to all of that trouble and not make the suspension adjustable? If you're really trying to get maximum cornering ability you need to be able to adjust things, and it looks like this 'B add on isn't. The other thought I had when I first saw this suspension advertised was that it looks a bit chunky; nice and safe I guess but throwing on the unsprung weight isn't the way to improve handling.

I keep drawing suspension replacements for my 'B (front end). I'm building the car for "Street Mod 2" autocrossing (Rover 3.9 powerplant) and I know to get things "right" I've got to have some shocks I can adjust. SM rules allow me to use "any suspension that connects to the original chassis pick-up points". I'm going to be a bit liberal in my interpretation of that and say that includes removing the upper shock/a-arm and using anything I can design that will bolt on in place of the shock. Autocross has become hyper competitive these days.

While IRS in a 'B would be cool project, I don't think it'd make that much difference, particularly in a street car. I've always set up street/autox fun 'Bs with stiff noses and loose rears; my rally car is kind of "middle" front and rear.

-Keith Wheeler
Team Sanctuary

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #17
danmas Dan Masters Alcoa, Tennessee, USA 1974 MG MGB GT "Powered By Ford"	Posted: August 22, 2005 04:26PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 1,205

Keith,

Which "B" IFS are you referring to? The Fast Cars setup is indeed adjustable, and the entire unit weighs 80 pounds less than stock.

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #18
TeamSanc	Posted: August 22, 2005 09:07PM Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 18

Dan,

Good to know it is indeed adjustable. I'll admit I was speaking about a setup that I've only seen pictures of; where I'm used to seeing spherical bearings (like the Spridget system pictured here), the Fast Cars looked a bit, shall we say, more agricultural. I wasn't trying to say it was a bad setup, just looked a bit heavier than what I'd expect to see on a modified racing machine

Where'd they loose the most weight?

-Keith Wheeler
Team Sanctuary

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #19
danmas Dan Masters Alcoa, Tennessee, USA 1974 MG MGB GT "Powered By Ford"	Posted: August 23, 2005 01:39PM Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 1,205

Keith,

Most of the weight reduction is in the unsprung weight. Send me your e-mail address and i'll send you a copy of the Ted's brochure for the IFS. In addition to a good description, it has Ted's phone number and e-mail address on it so you can contact him directly for more info.

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Re: IRS and Front Coil Overs #20
200mph Mike J Lake Norman, NC, USA 1965 Ford Ranchero 1967 Austin-Healey Sprite 1967 MG MGB 1969 Austin-Healey Sprite 1974 MG MGB → more	Posted: August 23, 2005 02:34PM Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 4,013

I've looked at several different IRS setups for the B, both weld-on and bolt-in. The Hoyle unit looks especially nice. I've decided against it for several reasons.

When Ford recently redesigned the Mustang, they kept the old solid rear axle design, although the upcoming Cobra versions may have IRS. Their reasons, in no particular order: cost, overall weight, simplicity, proven design. That got me to thinking.

My MGB has the early "banjo-style" rear, so changing gear ratios is a snap, and parts are readily available in the US (not too many Ford Sierras here to donate a rear end pumpkin for an IRS setup, are there?).

I would add a panhard rod to keep the rear located laterally, firm up all the suspension bushings, replace the springs with either monoleaf or composite leaf springs, or maybe even coilovers. Perhaps experimenting with a rear sway bar and or a limited slip unit, and you'll have a very fun to drive B at far less than the cost of IRS.

Plus, if you're going to autocross, IRS will put you in Modified class with the big hairy dogs.

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