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Mustangsix Avatar
Mustangsix Gold Member Jack Collins
Orlando, FL, USA   USA
The location of the LED or filament within the lamp housing has a considerable effect on the beam pattern. I'm sure there must be a defined spec for H4 bulbs that spells out location of the filaments. Some bulbs are better than others at producing a good pattern within a given housing, I've noticed.

That's the crux of the problem we have had with LED headlamp replacement bulbs. The LED emitters don't quite replicate the incandescent filament locations and thus the beam is less well defined. "Blobs of light", more or less, not sharp cutoffs.

There may be an LED bulb out there that performs better, but the ones we tested were pretty poor in that regard. Bright enough, but bad patterns that will blind oncoming cars.

The low power draw of the LED makes sense and I'm sure we will see better and better H4-style bulbs over time.


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Jim Blackwood Avatar
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8
Gunpowder Rd., USA   USA
I think we'll have to have lenses specifically designed for LED elements because the LED is not yet capable of the same spot intensity as Halogen, and may well never be. Which means that no LED element will ever give good optics in a halogen headlight.

Right now the industry is all over the map with a complete shotgun approach to the problem. Or maybe blunderbuss would be a more accurate description. Everything from projectors to faceted reflectors to emitter arrays and more are being tried (Though I haven't seen much in the way of proper lens design, probably due to the expense) and if *someone* doesn't start to make real progress soon we will see a backlash and a return to strict regulation. The situation is not much different in that regard than the dawn of incandescent vehicle lighting. Eventually legislators are going to decide that being blinded by oncoming traffic leads to auto fatalities, and they'll be right.

Jim

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MSGDLD Avatar
MSGDLD Gold Member Dave Densmore
North East, Ohio, USA   USA
1974 MG MGB GT "Mabel"
1980 MG MGB MkIV
A quick note,
The quality of the light matters. I have a set of Delta brand from Summit with plastic lenses, I don't like them as well as the Hella with glass lenses I had in the roadster. In particular, the lens has to be engineered to perform the beam spreads properly, and I would be suspicious of a $14 headlight. This is one time I'd figure I'm going to get what I paid for, and won't like it.

Also FWIW, I've found I really like the Slvania UltraSilverstar H4 Halogen bulbs. Whiter light, brighter light, but more expensive and I don't think they have as long a life as a standard bulb. I'm sure that some of the other major manufactures, like phillips, offer something similar.

H4 stands for the connector type and base of the bulb, so they should all be hi low, and work in a H4 Headlight.

In reply to # 3550219 by dhen
In reply to # 3550213 by Mustangsix The relays will ensure full voltage gets to the lights.

LEDs are a different style of bulb that may not perform as well as a regular incandescent.

Can I use any relay?

After some more research it looks like these would work. Are the Xenon bulb sizes universal?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ipc-cwc-7006/recommendedparts

Here is a full set:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hla-002395801/overview/

Thanks,

Darian

rsdgeorge rocky g
Olive Branch, MS, USA   USA
1976 MG MGB
Never buy plastick buy a headlight with optical glass. The Euro lights have much better optics and the reflector is more focused. As far as bulbs the Ecode is better, they are made for the lights. I had Cibie headlights on an 82 Chevy pickup and was sold on them since.

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MGB567 Avatar
MGB567 Gold Member Barrie Braxton
Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia   AUS
1966 MG MGB MkI "Money Guzzler"
1979 MG MGB GT V8 Conversion "Darkside"
OP you asked about lights for your A. AFAIK a 7" is a 7" is a...... That written it would appear that the halogen bulb is a P45T but how that differs from a H4 IDK. Over on the main forum there was a recent discussion about bulbs which started off asking about LED. IYI you can read here in particular read #14. I just bought a set for my GT but they may well have for the A; I didn't search for you.



Convertible: CKD 11/66 first registered 8/5/67. Owned since 3/77. 90% original sheet metal. 18GB +40 balanced with almost all new internals. Peter Burgess big valve fast road head. Piper 285. Fidanza FW. Basil's followers and pushrods. TR7clutch. TT exhaust. ARP everywhere. 123 ign. Needham 4synchro c/r box.. Stock rebuilt/replaced suspension. Superpro bushes. New brakes all round including all pipes in SS flex. Interior redone. CAMS approved roll bar and side bars. Lots more. Hybrid of o/e and show/fast road car. Not for sale - it's my toy!

GT: UK car built/sold December '78. Stripped back to bare shell (with extensive bodywork to come). Powered by 'worked' Rover 5 litre V8 (ex TVR Chimera) with efi. T5 box. FC IFS. CCE rear attached to Salisbury axle with Quaife. And a whole lot more to yet to come. Stealth is the word.

Jim Blackwood Avatar
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8
Gunpowder Rd., USA   USA
Barrie, I see they have taken the approach of positioning the LED chips in the exact same location as the Halogen H4 bulb element. This is a valid approach but has drawbacks too. First off is the question of whether an LED chip can ever produce the same intensity in as small of an area and still carry off adequate excess heat to keep it reliable. The second and related to the first is that the Halogen element radiates light in a full 360 degrees around the element whereas the LED chip has to take half of that for the heat sink. This means that while the Halogen element is using the full reflector and lens, the LED bulb can use only half of each one, meaning the chip has to put out double the intensity of light in one direction and cannot make full use of the reflector and lens, the halves of which are not symmetrical.

A tremendous quantity of time and money went into state of the art e-code lens and reflector design. Until comparable efforts are made with the LED element what we have are short cuts. And because no new cars use the 7" round bulb it just isn't happening. Some of the new OEM bulbs are quite good, the wife's Mazda CX5 for example. But they don't fit an MGB.

Jim

mgb281 Philip Waterman
Taunton, Somerset, UK   GBR
Dan is absolutely correct about the current state of play in the headlight market, it is not only the aftermarket that has a problem, the OE market is the same. From my experience the current design of headlights is more about style rather than the quality of light produced. About forty five years ago I read an excellent article about headlamp design that was written by an optical engineer at Cibie, I was so impressed I went out and bought a pair of their new Z180 headlights for my MGB. The difference was astounding. The gist of the article was that it was easy to design a perfect headlight in a circular reflector where the light source is a single point of light unfortunately there is no such thing all, bulbs have a filament of differing lengths. The halogen bulb arrived with a much shorter filament and higher light output and the light manufacturers had a simpler time to design a better headlight, you have to remember that the dip filament in the same reflector has to put the light in a different place to the main beam, no easy task. Even changing the bulb from 55w to 100w puts the light source in a different place and although more light is produced it is not projected in the same manner.
Since the 1970's headlights have been more about style and we have all shapes and sizes and apart from those on a Volvo S80 none have come close to those Z180's not even on its sister car the S60 that we also owned although a friends Mercedes is excellent.
A few months ago I read a review of about ten LED lights all 7 inch for MGB's etc most of them had high lumen output (some incredibly high) but the reviewer stated that most of this light was scattered, all of them could be used LHD or RHD because the dip simply had a horizontal cut off and did not light up the nearside verge. Unfortunately I am unable to find the article again but think it was a Trucklite that was deemed to be the best performer

ohlord Avatar
ohlord Gold Member Rob C
North of Seattle, N.W., USA   USA
1957 Land Rover Series I "EYEYIYI"
1971 MG MGB
1971 MG MGB "Bedouin 2"
That time is here if the money is spent . Average $700 for real spec LED HEADLIGHTS such as Vision X.
Brighter by magnitude than Hella etc lights up the night
No spurious glare.



In reply to # 3551102 by Jim Blackwood Even among the E-code headlights some are better than others, and Hella apparently went on a campaign to remove the competition. Or maybe it was Cibie. They seem to be about the same. One site in particular which once offered unbiased comparisons now is a Hella champion. Or a Cibie champion. Point is he sold out and I no longer trust his advice. Don't get me wrong, they are good lights and have been around a long time, but in terms of optics unless they have improved they are not the best, or even the best at a reasonable price point. They are simply the most common. Unfortunately I've forgotten the name of the brand that I bought almost15 years back and they do not appear to be marked. But I undoubtedly wrote posts about them either here, or more likely on BritishV8 so it should be possible to discover that information. The optics are very, very good. These are a nearly flat faced lens but shortly afterwards this manufacturer began selling a curved face lens which looks better with the MGB. I use a bubble type lens protector though which helps with the appearance and with rocks. The price was competitive with Hella and the optics were better.

E-code H4 halogen bulbs are manufactured to meet rather stringent standards and as such have significant uniformity, unlike the LED headlights presently flooding the market. With the LED lights I don't know what standards there are but either they appear to be greatly relaxed or a lot of manufacturers are ignoring them. The resulting selection is stuffed with worthless junk and finding valid and reliable comparisons is very difficult. But the difference is that the H4 market is very mature and has been refined to the point that the worst bulb is still pretty good, and the best is fantastic. The LED market is brand new and largely unregulated and as a result most of what is out there really isn't very good at all. Things have been further confused by the entry of HID and projector headlights, again less well regulated and refined than the halogen market, the result of which has been a general decline in the effectiveness of headlights. There are good ones out there of every type, but it's a lot like Russian Roulette unless you spend an inordinate amount of time researching the available products. Even then, information like beam pattern and intensity which used to be common metrics of performance are difficult to uncover or non-existent.

I'd give the LED lights at least another 5 years to mature, 10 would be better. For now the H4 is still the safest selection.

Jim

Here is a site that might be useful:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?421582-End-is-Near-for-Halogen-Headlights



"I'm a long way gone down this wild road I'm on
It's gonna take me where I'm bound
It's a long way around"



"These are the days that must happen to you"

RD2 Radar/ Electronic Warfare Technician
Vietnam 1969-1972

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ohlord Avatar
ohlord Gold Member Rob C
North of Seattle, N.W., USA   USA
1957 Land Rover Series I "EYEYIYI"
1971 MG MGB
1971 MG MGB "Bedouin 2"
10.5V : 510 lumens
11.0V : 597 lumens
11.5V : 695 lumens
12.0V : 803 lumens
12.5V : 923 lumens
12.8V : 1000 lumens ←Rated output voltage
13.0V : 1054 lumens
13.5V : 1198 lumens
14.0V : 1356 lumens ←Rated life voltage
14.5V : 1528 lumens
Lumens depending on voltage drop
Relay takes load off headlight switch and creates a source of full voltage to the consumer ie. Headlight
Wiring diagram for standard Auto relay on Google
thumbs up
It helps measurably as demonstrated on the chart above

In comparison a real quality ( read expensive $$$,) LED Vision X headlight puts out Raw Lumens: 4,210 lm
Effective Lumens: 2,947 lm
Wattage: 43
Amp Draw(@12V): 3.58A
7INCH ARE STILL USED IN MANY off road vehicles Land Rovers and jeeps, etc

The cheap ones you linked to aren't worth the effort to toss them in the trash bin.
In reply to # 3550155 by dhen I'm a little confused. With the relay kit help with the existing halogen lights or if I upgrade to some LED lights? Or both?

I understood what you're saying that a relay helps, but I don't understand how. Do I have to use the special Moss kit or could I just go down to the junkyard and get my own relay.?

Thanks



"I'm a long way gone down this wild road I'm on
It's gonna take me where I'm bound
It's a long way around"



"These are the days that must happen to you"

RD2 Radar/ Electronic Warfare Technician
Vietnam 1969-1972



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-09-07 11:21 PM by ohlord.

Peter-Sherman Avatar
Peter-Sherman Peter Sherman
Melbourne, Australia   AUS
Relays make a big difference. Put one in today for the low beams. I put one on for the high beam years ago to save the switch from burning out again and again.
Came home over the black spur last night , narrow twisty steep road, mist, rain and with frequent oncoming traffic and couldn't see a thing, nearly drove off the road, so decided it was past time to relay the low beams.

Lights went from yellow to bright white, huge difference.

Cheap and easy to do. I put the relay* with the other near the fuse box where I could easily get power to the #30 relay post and an earth to #85 . I ran a pair of wires down to the front right corner of the car (a thick one and a thin one). Then just unplugged and plugged in to the existing low bean (blue with red line) connector. Where the blue red wire divides for left and right headlight. The thick wire from # 87 relay terminal to the lights, the thin wire to bring the light switch power back to the relay switch, # 86 terminal. The hardest bit was teasing the bullet connectors apart as the insulation had shrunk.

*a 40 amp one from the local auto shop. About $10.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-09-08 08:05 AM by Peter-Sherman.

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MGB567 Avatar
MGB567 Gold Member Barrie Braxton
Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia   AUS
1966 MG MGB MkI "Money Guzzler"
1979 MG MGB GT V8 Conversion "Darkside"
In my poll about which parklight/indicator mention was made of Land Rover's Defender version so then I thought what about their 7"; do you think these would work? If you don't want to go to the hot link there's a simple pic below.



Convertible: CKD 11/66 first registered 8/5/67. Owned since 3/77. 90% original sheet metal. 18GB +40 balanced with almost all new internals. Peter Burgess big valve fast road head. Piper 285. Fidanza FW. Basil's followers and pushrods. TR7clutch. TT exhaust. ARP everywhere. 123 ign. Needham 4synchro c/r box.. Stock rebuilt/replaced suspension. Superpro bushes. New brakes all round including all pipes in SS flex. Interior redone. CAMS approved roll bar and side bars. Lots more. Hybrid of o/e and show/fast road car. Not for sale - it's my toy!

GT: UK car built/sold December '78. Stripped back to bare shell (with extensive bodywork to come). Powered by 'worked' Rover 5 litre V8 (ex TVR Chimera) with efi. T5 box. FC IFS. CCE rear attached to Salisbury axle with Quaife. And a whole lot more to yet to come. Stealth is the word.


Attachments:
L R 7.jpg    24 KB
L R 7.jpg

MSGDLD Avatar
MSGDLD Gold Member Dave Densmore
North East, Ohio, USA   USA
1974 MG MGB GT "Mabel"
1980 MG MGB MkIV
Barrie,

IMO, yes.

7" round is 7" round. Thankfully for us, that was a standard for years.

There's no real good picture of the electrical connector, but it appears from the one picture of the connector it's the spade connectors of a standard 7" headlight and an H4. Still, by some odd chance it was different, it could be rewired.

Myself, I like it. I'd go for it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-09-13 07:19 AM by MSGDLD.

ohlord Avatar
ohlord Gold Member Rob C
North of Seattle, N.W., USA   USA
1957 Land Rover Series I "EYEYIYI"
1971 MG MGB
1971 MG MGB "Bedouin 2"
Cheap, poor pattern and reflector.
Some modern 7inch won't fit old buckets without cutting.

In reply to # 3591102 by MGB567 In my poll about which parklight/indicator mention was made of Land Rover's Defender version so then I thought what about their 7"; do you think these would work? If you don't want to go to the hot link there's a simple pic below.



"I'm a long way gone down this wild road I'm on
It's gonna take me where I'm bound
It's a long way around"



"These are the days that must happen to you"

RD2 Radar/ Electronic Warfare Technician
Vietnam 1969-1972

MSGDLD Avatar
MSGDLD Gold Member Dave Densmore
North East, Ohio, USA   USA
1974 MG MGB GT "Mabel"
1980 MG MGB MkIV
Rob,

About the headlights Barrie was asking about.

I can see that there's a possibility that the back of the light wouldn't fit in the MG bucket, although at least by the drawing it looks like it should.

I do wonder what makes it cheap, other than price, a poor pattern, since without the pattern on the wall it's hard to tell, and a poor reflector since it's projector beams.

I've not found price to be an indicator of quality. I've had some poor expensive items, and good inexpensive items.
the only way to really tell what the pattern of the headlights are is against a wall, and it would've been nice to see that. I don't know anything about the reflector on a projector headlight other than that it's small.

BTW, thanks for your volts vs Lumen chart. Very informative.

Jim Blackwood Avatar
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8
Gunpowder Rd., USA   USA
The projector bulbs will look funny on an MGB. If you don't mind that it's fine but be prepared to defend your choice because people will comment.

It is debatable whether projector bulb patterns are comparable to good halogens and the jury is still out. Due to the small internal dimensions, mask placement is super critical for correct low beam cutoff and bleedover is likely to be an issue. Less expensive light manufacturers are less likely to be careful about these concerns.

Jim

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