302 header options : MG Engine Swaps Forum : MG Experience Forums : The MG Experience

302 header options #1
89325iturbo Dusty A CT, USA	Posted: November 08, 2011 08:13AM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 255

Has anyone ever had any sucess with an off the shelf ford 302 set of headers? Or is pretty much a must to go with mantell or fast cars inc. ones. And does anyone know a price of either the mantell or fast cars headers? I emailed both of them a couple days ago but havent heard back yet. dusty

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2011 08:20AM by 89325iturbo.

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Re: 302 header options #2
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8 Gunpowder Rd., USA	Posted: November 08, 2011 08:55AM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 2,241

It's really a shame that nobody has been able to come up with a design for an equal length header for this swap, as if it was available that would probably put this one over the top. Combined with the ready availability, the abundance of performance parts, good performance, and existance of swap parts already, it would very likely make this the engine of choice.

But equal length headers are not easy to develop and nobody has done it yet. Which is a shame really. The fact of the matter is that all of the headers currently available are really very little more than tubular exhaust manifolds. Of course this is equally true of the other engine choices as well and extremely few examples of genuine equal length headers even exist for this car, except for the stock engine. Those that do are custom builds that have never seen production.

Yet the benefits of true equal length headers were well proven many decades ago. Somehow, in the last 20 or 30 years that seems to have been forgotten and we've seen the rampant cancerous growth of "shortie" and other varieties of non-equal length headers. So just for the record let me state it again. "The use of equal length headers provides the biggest gain in horsepower for the money spent, often resulting in a 10% or more increase over stock cast iron manifolds, and also improved fuel economy." (paraphrased from numerous muscle car magazine articles of the '60s and '70s).

JB

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Re: 302 header options #3
302V8 Pete Mantell Sidney, IL, USA 1969 MG MGB V8 Conversion "Xenia" 1969 MG MGC 1969 MG MGC GT 1969 MG MGC GT "Foxy" 1970 MG MGB GT → more	Posted: November 08, 2011 09:08AM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 449

Hi Dusty,

FYI - I did not receive an email from you. I can be reached at pete@mantellmotorsport.com

So far I have not found any off the shelf headers that will be a direct fit for the 302 conversion.
When I started building conversions in 98, I used a generic set of Hedman headers, cut and welded etc. to fit before having dedicated headers built for my MGB 302 V8 conversion kits.

Cheers

Pete

69 CGT 7666 Auto - 69 CGT 9004 - 69 B 302 V8 - 78 B 215 V8

http://www.mantellmotorsport.com/

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Re: 302 header options #4
ex-tyke Graham Creswick Chatham, Ontario, Canada 1976 MG MGB	Posted: November 08, 2011 09:11AM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 779

For the record, I believe Pete's headers are sourced through Fast Cars (Ted Lathrup) and when I purchased mine 2 years ago, the price was $600 for mild steel (non-ceramic coated).
They are well made and are designed to give full wheel lock with wider rim & tire combinations.
Ted also sells his "Block hugger" headers (as installed on Dan Masters GT) but they are more expensive.
I can say that there are no "off-the-shelf" headers that will provide a well designed exhaust system for the MGB.

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Re: 302 header options #5
ex-tyke Graham Creswick Chatham, Ontario, Canada 1976 MG MGB	Posted: November 08, 2011 09:50AM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 779

Jim, It’s not very often that I disagree with you but in the case of equal length headers for a V8 engine being the optimal setup, from what I’ve read in David Vizard’s “How to Build Horsepower” that philosophy is old school and doesn’t hold true anymore.

And I quote:
“What we find in practice is that a V-8 is very much primary-length insensitive. If the primaries are somewhere between about 28 and 40 inches, things work just fine. This is also a reason why getting all the pipes the exact same length for a V-8 is something of a waste of time”

It follows that primary lengths shorter than 28” will not develop the optimal HP increase of the longer ones….for most of us we simply don’t have the room to install long length primaries.
Vizard delves at length on the greater importance of suitable pipe diameter, bend radius, collector length and dia. and alternate header configurations like a 4-2-1 setup in lieu of a 4-1 design…… 4 bangers, sixes and other 8 cylinder configurations do not necessarily fall under the same set of rules.

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Re: 302 header options #6
1744 Bill Guzman California, USA 1973 MG MGB GT "Green GT" 1974 MG MGB "Punking"	Posted: November 08, 2011 11:30AM Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 4,821

This is a high performance header from Ford for the newest V8

It is our attitude that will determine the outcome

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Re: 302 header options #7
1744 Bill Guzman California, USA 1973 MG MGB GT "Green GT" 1974 MG MGB "Punking"	Posted: November 08, 2011 11:31AM Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 4,821

Forgot to mention that the 4 into 1 is the racing version, the chrome headers are the street version.

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Re: 302 header options #8
89325iturbo Dusty A CT, USA	Posted: November 08, 2011 11:32AM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 255

Sorry Pete, I just looked through my emails, and it never originally sent for some reason. The biggest reason I ask is cause headers made to fit in the mustang chassis are so cheap. It would be a big money saver if something worked.

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Re: 302 header options #9
CJ Steak Chris Salisbury Hutto, Near Austin, TX, USA 1967 MG MGB GT "Ford 5.0 / T5 Powered!"	Posted: November 08, 2011 11:51AM Registered: 3 years ago Posts: 902

Hey Dusty,

I responded to your PM earlier, but I'll post here as well. Sorry it took so long, but I've been out of a town for a few days.

When I started my conversion I really didn't want to spend much money on luxury items like customer fit headers etc. Since I had fabricated every single other part of my project, I figured I'd do the same for the headers.

WRONG.

I had a bunch of buddies give me different sets of manifolds/headers to play around with and non of them worked. Not even close. By the time I cut up a set of Mustang headers and put them back together, they would've look like crap and who knows how well they would've worked.

I got my headers from Ted at Fast Cars Inc. and have been very happy with them. No leaks and they fit perfectly the first time, right out of the box.

I gave 600 bucks for my 5.0 with T5 attached, and 600 bucks for the headers lol... it was hard to swallow, but it was worth it.

If you want to see really expensive headers, look at the ones for new Mustangs and Camaros. 1500 bucks + for the really nice ones. OUCH.

-Chris

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Re: 302 header options #10
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8 Gunpowder Rd., USA	Posted: November 08, 2011 04:33PM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 2,241

In reply to a post by ex-tyke Jim, It’s not very often that I disagree with you but in the case of equal length headers for a V8 engine being the optimal setup, from what I’ve read in David Vizard’s “How to Build Horsepower” that philosophy is old school and doesn’t hold true anymore.

And I quote:
“What we find in practice is that a V-8 is very much primary-length insensitive. If the primaries are somewhere between about 28 and 40 inches, things work just fine. This is also a reason why getting all the pipes the exact same length for a V-8 is something of a waste of time”

It follows that primary lengths shorter than 28” will not develop the optimal HP increase of the longer ones….for most of us we simply don’t have the room to install long length primaries.
Vizard delves at length on the greater importance of suitable pipe diameter, bend radius, collector length and dia. and alternate header configurations like a 4-2-1 setup in lieu of a 4-1 design…… 4 bangers, sixes and other 8 cylinder configurations do not necessarily fall under the same set of rules.

You could be right Graham, Vizard is one sharp fellow, and it's entirely possible the benefit is from the longer length. But having said that, Ed Henneman ("Headers by Ed" winking smiley

of hot rodder fame was very insistent when I discussed it with him, and I'd venture to say that he's made and tested far more sets of headers than David has, so who knows really? Compared to these mammoth authorities I can only guess. And I haven't taken time to see what Ed has to say on the subject on his new web page, (Well, it's new compared to when I last talked to him.) One thing I did notice though was that he still states that equal lengths maximizes power gains while minimizing tuning problems. I can readily buy into the last part of that argument.

Anyway the link is here if you'd like to look at it:
http://www.headersbyed.com/

He's got a lot of good info there, and I think most, if not all of it is backed up by actual experience.

JB

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Re: 302 header options #11
ex-tyke Graham Creswick Chatham, Ontario, Canada 1976 MG MGB	Posted: November 08, 2011 05:15PM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 779

Jim, just had a brief butchers at the "Headers by Ed" site and he seems to promote equal length headers - contrary to the testing done by Vizard.
So, once again,... we are to left to conclude that there are 2 schools of thought when specifying header design parameters (kinda like opposing views on the performance of copper/brass vs aluminum rads - depending on the relevent lobby group)

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Re: 302 header options #12
NOHOME Peter Plouf London, Canada 1961 Austin-Healey Sprite Bugeye "Lil" 1967 MG MGB GT "Maggie (GT From Hell)"	Posted: November 08, 2011 05:22PM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 11,875

One person that I know of has done this. In order to pull it off he moved the engine back far enough that the pulley cleared the crossmember. He was then able to fit a set of off-the-shelf headers in the available space. The car is listed on the V8 website, sorry but the owners name escapes me at the moment.The car was for sale not too long ago.

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Re: 302 header options #13
1744 Bill Guzman California, USA 1973 MG MGB GT "Green GT" 1974 MG MGB "Punking"	Posted: November 08, 2011 05:27PM Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 4,821

If I may, long tube headers and equal length primaries are for high rpm and the gain is so minuscule, that going through the travel of making them equal is not worth it.

Long time ago there was a test conducted between long tube headers and open manifolds (meaning big inside)
The test was on a 289 Ford and using the high performance cast manifolds Vs the long tube headers.

low to mid range the cast iron made more torque and high rpm the long tube headers with somewhat equal tubes made very little difference.

I had a set of equal length headers and what i gain was experience in making them. Had to use different radius on each tube to maintain the length.

If we are referring to a daily driver a good free flowing manifold can do the job. A equal long tube header can gain some without mufflers, no can do in the street.

Exhaust balance and pipe dia is more important than length and equal.

Ford and GM have done extensive work on exhaust manifolds, just take a look at the Corvette or new Mustangs.

We are talking street performance and not racing right?

It is our attitude that will determine the outcome

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Re: 302 header options #14
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8 Gunpowder Rd., USA	Posted: November 08, 2011 06:40PM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 2,241

Nice headers Bill.

Seems to me there is more going on in an exhaust system than hardly anyone understands, but so far as I've seen Ed comes as close as anyone. If you poke around his site there is just an incredible amount of information on every aspect of header design. Just one example: Venturi extensions and inserts. Personally, I'd not seen anything before by anyone on this topic, but he has done track and street testing and demonstrated some pretty dramatic gains. The thing I like about the way he does things is that his golden standard is testing. Unless he gets consistent results he doesn't accept a theory on exhaust operations. That makes a lot of sense to me, and here's a guy who has been actively testing every theory to come down the pike for 50 years. Now granted GM has built a lot of exhaust systems. They've also built a pretty good number of bad ones. And if we had the same goals that they do then maybe their solutions would be the best. Or maybe they wouldn't. And I personally see a lot of reason in Ed's hierarchy of design considerations: tube size, tube length etc on through number 8 which is construction problems. I just like the way the guy goes about finding out what works and what doesn't. He's very straight forward about it and what he says makes sense to me.

JB

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Re: 302 header options #15
89325iturbo Dusty A CT, USA	Posted: November 08, 2011 06:54PM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 255

Are headers for all year 302's interchangeable? Say would headers for a 70's 302 fit the heads of a late 80's mustang 302? and vise versa?

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Re: 302 header options #16
CJ Steak Chris Salisbury Hutto, Near Austin, TX, USA 1967 MG MGB GT "Ford 5.0 / T5 Powered!"	Posted: November 08, 2011 07:25PM Registered: 3 years ago Posts: 902

Yes, all headers/exhaust manifolds will fit any small block Ford unless they have the P heads. Those are high port heads and they won't fit.

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Re: 302 header options #17
1744 Bill Guzman California, USA 1973 MG MGB GT "Green GT" 1974 MG MGB "Punking"	Posted: November 08, 2011 08:26PM Registered: 7 years ago Posts: 4,821

What is amazing to me Jim, is hoe the information changes as time goes by, almost as lap tops and pads.
They do the same work with a different approach.

Once that has changed in the exhaust systems is the now famous X pipe. I have seen the test results in magazines and etc..

A conference sponsor by GM that I attended in 2003 in Nashville TN. The engineers all agreed on dia size and cross overs or X pipes. From test conducted by magazines and others it shows very little improvement over the existing exhaust manifolds.

WHY ???? Well the heads do breath better, better design exhaust ports and cam profiles specially with roller cams do not need super long primaries etc..so things do change.

In the old days of the Chevy camel hump heads and others. This heads responded to long tube headers.

Ford has gone to the shorties and the story goes on.

It is our attitude that will determine the outcome

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Re: 302 header options #18
Jim Blackwood * BlownMGB-V8 Gunpowder Rd., USA	Posted: November 08, 2011 08:43PM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 2,241

Here's another link worth looking at:
http://headersbyed.com/getmoreinfo.htm

It's a description of their info pack they send out. Compared to what I got almost 30 years ago it is a real treasure trove, and I felt like I got very good value for the cost. Plus as they point out, the Jet-Hot coupon is worth the cost of the info pack. Anyway just reading the description covers a lot of information. This is one of the extremely rare commercial sites that gives freely of their technical expertise without asking you to buy something first.

With Ed's encouragement I hand built a set of headers for my car back in about '87. To be honest, I was astounded by how well the car ran, and even though I have substantially increased the displacement and output of the engine I expect it to continue to do well and I think it is well suited to my intended use, but even if they should turn out to be a bit small for optimized maximum power I don't think that's my goal here. Low and midrange power along with economy are much more critical in a daily driver.

But the point is, it doesn't matter as much as you might think if manufactured headers aren't available, because with only a little attention to important details you can build a better set of headers than you can buy anyway.

JB

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Re: 302 header options #19
Ryan Reis Beatrice, NE, USA 1968 MG MGB	Posted: November 09, 2011 09:29AM Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 4,378

Back to Dusty's original question. The answer is "no", unless you significantly alter the engine position rearward there is no off the shelf factory or aftermarket header that will work. I used Speedway Motors block hugger headers that (at the time) were about $125. Bought a few u-bends ($50??) and built my own. It wasn't too difficult because it really just involved moving the collector farther away from the head. Still, it was a LOT of work and frankly I'm not sure how well they'll hold up if I ever finish the car. Which is definitely in doubt as the 10 year anniversary just passed and I've lost all momentum.

Ryan Reis
Beatrice,NE

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 11:25AM by Ryan Reis.

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Re: 302 header options #20
65ELCMO Steve Michaelson Oro Valley, AZ, USA	Posted: November 09, 2011 12:27PM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 115

The new Guzman mount kit will work with Mantell block hugger headers I think. Am I right Bill and Pete?

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