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Midget Rear brake cylinder roll pin does not match backing plate.

Moss Motors
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TcjMiami Thomas Johnson
Hollywood, Florida, USA   USA
I am trying to install Moss Motors 180-446 7/8" cylinders.

The plates are from a 1963 midget according to my source (I just bought the axle housing).
The roll pins seem to be about 1/16" our of alignment with the hole in the plate.
They area a bit too far out from the brake line entry point.

Are there different backing plates for Cir Clip style cylinders?

And I thought the Cir Clips would be bad part!!!

Any Ideas?

Thank you

Tom Johnson

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refisk Avatar
refisk Rick Fisk
Frankenmuth, Michigan, USA   USA
Not sure why your cylinders don't fit as the backplates are the same for all A-series cars that used a cylinder with a roll pin. They changed for the rubber bumper cars.

In reply to # 3552514 by TcjMiami I am trying to install Moss Motors 180-446 7/8" cylinders.

The plates are from a 1963 midget according to my source (I just bought the axle housing).
The roll pins seem to be about 1/16" our of alignment with the hole in the plate.
They area a bit too far out from the brake line entry point.

Are there different backing plates for Cir Clip style cylinders?

And I thought the Cir Clips would be bad part!!!

Any Ideas?

Thank you

Tom Johnson

TcjMiami Thomas Johnson
Hollywood, Florida, USA   USA
The cylinders that came with it we're not clipped in and did not have roll pins they were hanging on the brake lines.

There are holes for the pins they just do not line up.

Are there roll pin holes in the rubber bumper backing plates?

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refisk Avatar
refisk Rick Fisk
Frankenmuth, Michigan, USA   USA
I don't have a rubber bumper car any longer, but I believe the backing plates have the same holes.

In reply to # 3552567 by TcjMiami The cylinders that came with it we're not clipped in and did not have roll pins they were hanging on the brake lines.

There are holes for the pins they just do not line up.

Are there roll pin holes in the rubber bumper backing plates?

Kerr Avatar
Kerr Platinum Member Norm Kerr
Ann Arbor, MI, USA   USA
Hi Thomas,

A '63 axle housing should use 3/4" bore cylinders.

As Rick pointed out, the '75 - '79 changed to 7/8" bore cylinders and to avoid mixing them up BL changed the pin location, and changed the backing plates accordingly.


The change was more than 1/16" though, more like 1/2".


Moss part number for 7/8" cylinders 180-446.

Moss part number for 3/4" cylinders 180-386.


N

refisk Avatar
refisk Rick Fisk
Frankenmuth, Michigan, USA   USA
I believe you have the sizes mixed up Norm. A '63 should use the 7/8" cylinders. The later 1098's and 1275 cars used the 3/4" cylinders and the 1500's use an 11/16" cylinder. But Thomas' cylinders should still fit. ??


In reply to # 3552857 by Kerr Hi Thomas,

A '63 axle housing should use 3/4" bore cylinders.

As Rick pointed out, the '75 - '79 changed to 7/8" bore cylinders and to avoid mixing them up BL changed the pin location, and changed the backing plates accordingly.


The change was more than 1/16" though, more like 1/2".


Moss part number for 7/8" cylinders 180-446.

Moss part number for 3/4" cylinders 180-386.


N

nonracer Gold Member Steve Codianni
AZ, USA   USA
Tom
The housing and plates are from a 1962 but should be the same as a 63 . I don't see how the cylinders you got can fit because the original ones fit into a large slot and the ones you got fit into a round hole . Am I missing something here ? Aren't the two types of backing plates completely different.

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refisk Avatar
refisk Rick Fisk
Frankenmuth, Michigan, USA   USA
Now we're all really confused. We need photos of what you have Tom.


In reply to # 3552885 by nonracer Tom
The housing and plates are from a 1962 but should be the same as a 63 . I don't see how the cylinders you got can fit because the original ones fit into a large slot and the ones you got fit into a round hole . Am I missing something here ? Aren't the two types of backing plates completely different.

TcjMiami Thomas Johnson
Hollywood, Florida, USA   USA
First a little background.
I am in the final (I HOPE) stages of restoring a 59 bugeye.
I have the front disk brakes installed and I am trying to upgrade the rear brakes to later model for compatibility with my already purchased brake lines and for later parts availability.

I have a later model housing here that I found locally and these photos show what is happening.
I was trying to get the axle housing in the car so I can proceed with the project and get the car off the rotisserie.
I do not know the details of the housing and it was long ago removed from the donor car.

I have two of these cylinders and they both have the same issue.
I have tried both cylinders on both plates with same results.
If you look at the close up you will see the scratch mark left by the roll pin.
I am basically running out of patience and unless I get a good suggestion I am going elongate he hole and get on with the project.
I hope to have another set of plates this week and I will check them for the issue.


The photos show:
The cylinder and box with moss numbers.
The plate showing marks where I rotated the cylinder to mark the location of the roll pin.
Over all photo of the Plate.

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nonracer Gold Member Steve Codianni
AZ, USA   USA
Sorry if I confused the situation, I see your not using the backing plates from the 62' . Here are some pics of the " new" ones I'm sending you . I'm assuming there's something wrong with the Moss wheel cylinders , if you elongate the hole the cylinders could rotate under braking . IMO I wouldn't do that


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S1 Elan Kurt. Appley
Akron, Ia., USA   USA
Looks like another Asian crap part. Chew on Moss! Don't let them get away with it!

Kurt.

Kerr Avatar
Kerr Platinum Member Norm Kerr
Ann Arbor, MI, USA   USA
x2 on a bad quality part causing this issue.

However, I was pretty upset with myself that my records were faulty. So, I did some research today and here is definitely, certainly, (I am) positively (hoping) that this is all now correct:

Rear Brake Cylinders:

948 (’58~4/’62)
GWC1114 for 7/8” bore (single acting, drum front brakes)


948 (5/’62~9/’62)
GWC1115 for 3/4” bore (dual acting, drum front brakes)

948~1100~1275 (10/62 ~ 9/’74)
GWC1102 for 3/4” bore (dual acting, 8.4” disc front brakes)



All these vehicles used GWC1102, Wheel Cylinder, rear 3/4" bore:

1963-1966 Austin A40

1959-1964 Austin Mini

1963-1969 Austin Healey Sprite

1963-1967 MG 1100

1963-1974 MG Midget

1960-1964 Morris Minor
…and these are part numbers used by various vendors for the 3/4” bore:

112-23-004

180-386

20-1250

4241-396
4241-239

612005

GWC1102 (AP Capro, owner of former Lockheed brake division)



1500 (10/’74~ end)

GWC1129 for 11/16” bore

Interestingly, Horler doesn't mention the bore diameter change on the 1500, but several suppliers do call it out. The actual cut-in date is not exactly clear, so I went with the date given by Moss, UK, as being at the start of 1500 production. It shouldn't matter all that much, as long as they are always replaced in matching pairs.


Norm "stands corrected" Kerr

S1 Elan Kurt. Appley
Akron, Ia., USA   USA
Norm, you getting something wrong is, indeed, a rare incident! grinning smiley I think everyone will forgive!!

Kurt

Kerr Avatar
Kerr Platinum Member Norm Kerr
Ann Arbor, MI, USA   USA
smiling smiley

thumbs up emoji!

TcjMiami Thomas Johnson
Hollywood, Florida, USA   USA
Overall I think that Moss does an excellent job.
There is always going to be an occasional issue.

The part was actuyally made in Italy.
Probably another "socialist plot" to disrupt the US economy and under mind Trump.eye rolling smiley

TOM

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