rust attack progress pics! : MG Midget Forum : MG Experience Forums : The MG Experience

rust attack progress pics! #1
pants007 stevyn knox isle of man, United Kingdom	Posted: February 26, 2012 08:04AM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 639

hey guys some of you may have seen my pics after car was blasted! Advice was taken on board and removal of patches has started!

As you can see behind the A-post skin was a mess! the daft thing is that the PO put a new skin on and just left the bottom hinge hanging on! The top looks solid with just suface rust, so not sure whether to replace the whole lot or just repair sections? what is it actually supposed to look like inside?

The rear inner bulkhead left and right both need repair sections, how do the hinge covers attatch to the floor? does it just bolt through the repair section and into the spring bracket; cos mine at the moment goes through a piece of steel plate (see pic 5)

thanks...

oh and how the hell do you weld such thin steel?

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #2
pants007 stevyn knox isle of man, United Kingdom	Posted: February 26, 2012 08:06AM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 639

bulkhead!

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #3
pants007 stevyn knox isle of man, United Kingdom	Posted: February 26, 2012 08:08AM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 639

steel plate?

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #4
hoggie Mike Hogan Oklahoma City, USA 1969 MG Midget MkIII	Posted: February 26, 2012 09:16AM Registered: 2 years ago Posts: 459

Stevyn, The sheet metal on your car is mostly 18ga. The A posts are 20ga. The inner rocker panels are 16ga. The trick to welding sheet metal is to weld a bunch of tack welds around the piece you are welding in, then you go around the weld filling in with more tack welds until all is welded. It will look a little ugly, but then you grind the welds down as needed. You want to keep the metal as cool as you can to prevent warping, shrinkage, and distortion. You want your welder hot enough to penetrate, but not to burn through with a small tack. You can't weld more than 1/4 in at a time without burning through if your welder is set hot enough for good penetration. Best advice to to get some scrap metal of the same gauge and practice until you feel comfortable with the quality of the weld and process. You also have to cut the existing metal back to find good metal to weld to. If the metal is more than just slight surface rust, the metal will just burn back when you try to weld.

Although my A posts were not as far gone as yours, here are some pictures of my repairs. A post repairs
The A post has brackets on the inside to hold the hinge plate that you will need to reciprocate if you chose to repair the existing post. Yours may have enough damage to justify a replacement A post. Your rear spring mount issue is an important structural piece. You want to make sure you have have that area sorted out well. I see the rust outs on the rear arch channels. Here is a link to some pic's where I had to repair both of mine. Much the same damage as you had.
Rear arch channel repairs

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2012 03:30PM by hoggie.

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #5
pants007 stevyn knox isle of man, United Kingdom	Posted: February 26, 2012 10:36AM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 639

hey mike thats great! if you can jump on the next flight you will be here in 10hours! do you have a pic of the floor where the bolts go through to the rear spring? sorry to ask! looks like i'll be slow and steady!

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #6
pants007 stevyn knox isle of man, United Kingdom	Posted: February 26, 2012 10:45AM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 639

ok so 16,18 and 20ga is equal to 1.6 1.2 and .955 mm. Great i needed to now that.

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #7
pants007 stevyn knox isle of man, United Kingdom	Posted: February 26, 2012 10:55AM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 639

forget that mike ive just had a look at your album! that will be a massive help! did you weld the top and bottom of the arches at the same time?

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #8
James E Jimmy Campbell Bedford, Va, USA	Posted: February 26, 2012 02:04PM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 1,745

Stevyn, one look at the work Mike done on his car and you will want to buy him a plane ticket!!

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #9
pants007 stevyn knox isle of man, United Kingdom	Posted: February 26, 2012 02:49PM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 639

hey jimmy you can come to! i'll just put the kettle on! have i told you before that i went to Bedford University? In England!
Bring you friends and call it a working holiday!

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #10
hoggie Mike Hogan Oklahoma City, USA 1969 MG Midget MkIII	Posted: February 26, 2012 03:50PM Registered: 2 years ago Posts: 459

In reply to # 1995205 by pants007 forget that mike ive just had a look at your album! that will be a massive help! did you weld the top and bottom of the arches at the same time?

I only had to replace the bottom side of one arch channel. The other one was fine. I think it was a matter of original factory seam sealing on the bottom side of the arch channel that appeared to be missing on the one I had to replace. You might take a close look at yours and see if you have the same issue. Before I closed the top front ends of the channels, I swabbed the entire channel with some good primer, then used a lot of weld thru primer where I closed the channels to help prevent any future rusting.

Since you have a lot of ocean close by on the Isle of Man, I would suspect you have a continuous fight to keep rust under control. In Oklahoma, the salt they use on the roads in the winter is what kills you here. Once I get my Midget back on the road again, no more winter driving for me in that car.

Good luck on your restoration. It's just a matter of persistently banging away at rust damage until you have it under control. If I had known about Waxoyl about 30 years ago, I would have saved myself a bunch of work. But as strange as it may seem, I enjoyed the challenge.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2012 03:53PM by hoggie.

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #11
NOHOME Peter Plouf London, Canada 1961 Austin-Healey Sprite Bugeye "Lil" 1967 MG MGB GT "Maggie (GT From Hell)"	Posted: February 26, 2012 05:29PM Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 12,134

Cant recall if I gave you this link on your original post or not.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2203663/1967-mg-td

There might be a few pics that help you out. It was my first attempt at restoring a car, so proof that it can be done with no experience if you are mule headed enough to stick with it.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2012 08:29AM by NOHOME.

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #12
purpleGT Bud Osbourne Pittsburgh, PA., USA 1974 MG MGB GT "The Grape" 1977 MG MGB	Posted: February 26, 2012 10:13PM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 2,278

In reply to # 1995017 by pants007 steel plate?

Stevyn,
You've still got an old patch panel scabbed-on over the heel board. Some additional cropping-out is indicated. I'll take some pictures, tomorrow, of how that part of the floor should look and you will be able to learn from that what you need to put back on there.
As far as that A post goes, just get a complete Heritage replacement, which will have the hinge mounts & all the necessary reinforcement already installed. What you have left, there (A post) is not worth bothering with, given the ready availability of a complete, new A post assembly.

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #13
pants007 stevyn knox isle of man, United Kingdom	Posted: February 27, 2012 04:20AM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 639

hey bud! yeah those patches are coming off was going to wait till my repair patches come as i dont know the size i need to cut out, the one thing im stuggling with is the spot welds! i just cant see any there all blended in!

Hey peter thanks for that! some good pics there which make me feel better about my challenge! Got myself a welding lesson this week at a local machine shop!

Is it best to cut out everything all at once? A-post x2 inner rear bulkhead x2 etc so i can get all my repair sections at once? The floors and sills are new so shouldn't need to brace anything.

oh and is it best to have the doors and wings inplace when doing the A-posts? cos im not going to have my fibreglass wings for 4 weeks!

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #14
purpleGT Bud Osbourne Pittsburgh, PA., USA 1974 MG MGB GT "The Grape" 1977 MG MGB	Posted: February 27, 2012 06:31AM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 2,278

In reply to # 1995991 by pants007 hey bud! yeah those patches are coming off was going to wait till my repair patches come as i dont know the size i need to cut out, the one thing im stuggling with is the spot welds! i just cant see any there all blended in!

Hey peter thanks for that! some good pics there which make me feel better about my challenge! Got myself a welding lesson this week at a local machine shop!

Is it best to cut out everything all at once? A-post x2 inner rear bulkhead x2 etc so i can get all my repair sections at once? The floors and sills are new so shouldn't need to brace anything.

oh and is it best to have the doors and wings inplace when doing the A-posts? cos im not going to have my fibreglass wings for 4 weeks!

Yeah, those spot welds can be tough to see. You have to have PLENTY of light and you will probably need to move the light around to see what angle highlights the spot welds best.
No, don't cut everything out at once. Just get the repair patches cut off & out of the way. Then concentrate on one area at a time, from crop-out to completion (new steel welded in). That way, you will have something to refer to, while you are working on the opposite side.
BTW, if you are unsure of how something should look or go together, just post your question on here and some of us will be able to provide a photo, or series of photos, which will illustrate exactly what you are looking for. I'll be out in my storage area, taking some pictures of the rear of the floor & heel board area in an hour or so. The car is white, so it should show up pretty well.

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #15
purpleGT Bud Osbourne Pittsburgh, PA., USA 1974 MG MGB GT "The Grape" 1977 MG MGB	Posted: February 27, 2012 06:55AM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 2,278

In reply to # 1995991 by pants007
oh and is it best to have the doors and wings inplace when doing the A-posts? cos im not going to have my fibreglass wings for 4 weeks!

Before you remove the door posts, by removing the Posi-Drive screws holding the hinges to the A posts (drill 'em out, if you have to), leaving the hinges in place on the doors, take some careful measurements between the bottom of the door & the top of the sill, as well as from the rear of the door to the A post. Mark the measuring points & measurements right on the doors with a Sharpie pen, so you can refer to them, when you re-fit the doors. Since the A posts will be new, things will line-up differently, but the measurements will give you some place to start from. Patience & planning ahead (LOTS of both) will pay off, BIG-TIME, throughout this project.

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #16
pants007 stevyn knox isle of man, United Kingdom	Posted: February 27, 2012 07:25AM Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 639

hey bud do you mean the hinges on the doors or the hinge plate in the a post? i have already taken the hinges off the doors when it went to shot blasting, and the bottom hinge plate on rightside just fell off when i drilled out those posi-screws! the one thing im not sure off is what a full new A-post looks like in possition without the cover over and how it joins to the car and the cover; i can see it on the moss body section but that doesn't look like mine!

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #17
purpleGT Bud Osbourne Pittsburgh, PA., USA 1974 MG MGB GT "The Grape" 1977 MG MGB	Posted: February 27, 2012 07:40AM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 2,278

In reply to # 1996059 by pants007 hey bud do you mean the hinges on the doors or the hinge plate in the a post? i have already taken the hinges off the doors when it went to shot blasting, and the bottom hinge plate on rightside just fell off when i drilled out those posi-screws! the one thing im not sure off is what a full new A-post looks like in possition without the cover over and how it joins to the car and the cover; i can see it on the moss body section but that doesn't look like mine!

Hinges should always stay on the doors, to aid in refitting, when put back on car. If they are removed from the doors, it just means having to start from square one, when refitting the doors. A bit tedious & time-consuming, but not a major stumbling block.

You will want to order the complete A post assembly, from Heritage. Installation will involve some very carefuil pre-fitting of outer sill, A post and door to make sure everything gets lined-up correctly. When you are satisfied with the alignment & fit, screw everything in place w/self-tapping sheet metal screws, making sure you have the A post well secured in position on top of the outer sill. The A post should be pre-installed on the outer sill (flanges on base of A post will be welded to top of outer sill). Then, the A-post and outer sill are installed, as a unit, onto the unibody. The A-post has flanges, which will be spot-welded (plug welded) to the footwells side panel, and one of the reasons for pre-fitting everything & removing it, again (at least once, maybe more, depending on what is needed to make everything line-up correctly) is to carefully mark where the attachment flanges lay against their respective, adjoining panels. With those places clearly marked, you will then drill the holes for the plug welds (among other tasks) before the final installation and weld-up.

Heading out to take some pictures for you, now.

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #18
purpleGT Bud Osbourne Pittsburgh, PA., USA 1974 MG MGB GT "The Grape" 1977 MG MGB	Posted: February 27, 2012 08:22AM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 2,278

Stevyn,
Crappy ISP is making this post very difficult. Hope it works, this time. I'll just post the photos and edit, later.

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #19
purpleGT Bud Osbourne Pittsburgh, PA., USA 1974 MG MGB GT "The Grape" 1977 MG MGB	Posted: February 27, 2012 08:25AM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 2,278

And one more:

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Re: rust attack progress pics! #20
purpleGT Bud Osbourne Pittsburgh, PA., USA 1974 MG MGB GT "The Grape" 1977 MG MGB	Posted: February 27, 2012 08:49AM Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 2,278

In reply to # 1996117 by purpleGT Stevyn,
Crappy ISP is making this post very difficult. Hope it works, this time. I'll just post the photos and edit, later.

The first photo is of the right, rear corner of the floor, showing the heel board, also. This section of this Midget is completely original and has no rust, what-so-ever (lucky me smiling smiley

).
The second photos is more of the same. The two bolt holes pictured are for the forward mounting bolts of the forward spring mounting plate, which has captive nuts attached. Note that there is NO doubler plate welded to the floor, top or bottom; only the heel board flange, which forms a doubler over the forward end of the spring mounting plate.
The third photo really doesn't show you much, except for the new inner sill.
The fourth photo shows the inner fender (with repair insert.....no dressing of weld needed, because it will be covered by insullation & carpeting.....) and adjacent frame member, as original. When you evaluate your car, Stevyn, be sure to look very closely at the underside of that section of frame member, as it's not a very weather-tight fit, at all and is a prime source of rust.
The fifth photo shows the underside of the right rear heel board, in way of the right spring mount. You can barely see where a repair insert was welded into the vertical section of the heelboard, just to right of the opening for the spring. The lap seam, to the right, is an attachement weld for the rear filler piece for the outer sill. Although this was replaced, it is done as original.
The sixth photo shows the underside of the right rear, forward spring mounting area. The panel at the top of the photo is where the shock absorber mounts (note bolt hole). In the photo, you can see the original spot welds in several locations. All repairs to this section were done in the very lower right of the photo and the outline of one butt weld can just barely be seen in the photo.

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