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Easy Toe In alignment

Posted by gow589 
G W
Evansville, Indiana, USA   usa

http://www.rc-tech.net/MGB/align/align.htm

http://www.rc-tech.net/MGB/
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dwengdahl Avatar
David Engdahl
Henrietta, NY, USA   usa

Thanks for the tip. It may be a little more difficult with Rostyles (attaching the level) but I will give it a try.



Dave E.
1972 MGB GT RED
"Every path has a few puddles"
G W
Evansville, Indiana, USA   usa

dwengdahl Wrote:
Quote: Thanks for the tip. It may be a little more difficult with Rostyles (attaching the level) but I will give it a try.

Doesn't that show you just how narrow minded we are as individuals. I have spokes and never even gave thought to anything but spokes!




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Speedracer Avatar
Hap Waldrop
Greenville, SC, USA   usa
1967 MG MGB "The Biscuit"

I just string them and put the car in the sqaure of the strings and this way you thrust align the car. 4 jackstands, some string, a tape measure or ruler, I also made cheap turntables out .125" thick aluminum plates with grease/lube in between them. Just as acurate as my $40,000 Hunter machine was when I had the tire dealership.



Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Performance Street/Race engines- modified heads, and DIY engine rebuilt kits
New alloy wheels options for MGBs, see vendors forum for details.
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,2657584
Be sure to check my engine rebuild kit thread in the Vendors forum for weekly tips. http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,1828263



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2006 11:33AM by Speedracer.

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G W
Evansville, Indiana, USA   usa
Speedracer Avatar
Hap Waldrop
Greenville, SC, USA   usa
1967 MG MGB "The Biscuit"

My point is you need to thrust align these cars to insure they don't crab.



Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Performance Street/Race engines- modified heads, and DIY engine rebuilt kits
New alloy wheels options for MGBs, see vendors forum for details.
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,2657584
Be sure to check my engine rebuild kit thread in the Vendors forum for weekly tips. http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,1828263

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JNickell Avatar
Jay Nickell
Plano, Texas, USA   usa
1980 MG MGB

Hap, would you explain "thrust alignment" please.



A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

A man's admiration for absolute government is proportionate to the contempt he feels for those around him.
-Alexis de Tocqueville

1980 MGB
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G W
Evansville, Indiana, USA   usa

Jay thrust is alignment of real wheels with the car itself. That could easily be done with laser on mounted to the rims as well.
Speedracer Avatar
Hap Waldrop
Greenville, SC, USA   usa
1967 MG MGB "The Biscuit"

As was mentioned a thrust alignment is nothing more than squaring the car, meaning the front wheel are aligned making sure the rear axle is taken into mind. When you string a car the string never touches the car anywhere, you basicly square the car within the strings with any difference in front and rear track has to be taken into consideration. If you attach something like this laser to the wheels, then you can't do it, the line or string is not on the car, it's to the side and then measured to the car. Once the car is squared in the string, let's just say the rear track is 1" less than the front for an example, then the string when measured to the hub center would 1/2" greatet in the rear than the front on each side. Ok with car squared you are now ready to check the toe, you simply measure from the string to the front edge of the rim and then the rear edge of the rim and then compare the two measurements say the measurment is 1/16" greater on the front edge of the rim compared to the rear edge, then you have 1/16" of toe in. the string is best set up at hub center height, and the homemade turn tables I mentioned earlier allow you to make toe changes without having to roll the car, you also need to lock the sterring wheel in some sort of fashion to keep it straight I did all this for living when I was in the tire businees with a fancy machine, but all I'm doing now with string is mocking the mahcine, my method is widely used by racers who do their own alignment. Understanding alignment is the first step to doing it right.

You can set the toe all day long but unless you have the chassis squared then you could create crabbing.



Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Performance Street/Race engines- modified heads, and DIY engine rebuilt kits
New alloy wheels options for MGBs, see vendors forum for details.
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,2657584
Be sure to check my engine rebuild kit thread in the Vendors forum for weekly tips. http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,1828263



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2006 12:54PM by Speedracer.

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JNickell Avatar
Jay Nickell
Plano, Texas, USA   usa
1980 MG MGB

Thanks Gary and Hap.



A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

A man's admiration for absolute government is proportionate to the contempt he feels for those around him.
-Alexis de Tocqueville

1980 MGB
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flash75 Avatar
Clifton Gordon
Summerfield, Florida, USA   usa

Gary; Even though you are lifting the the wheel from the A arm you are moving the weight from the center wheel to the center of the jack base and the suspension camber angle will change due to the shorter lever arm. This may cause an error in your toe settings. If all cars were built with 0 bump steer that wouldn't be a problem. I believe you mentioned the toe in needed setting because you changed the camber. I believe all toe in checks should done with the car on the ground and the suspension settled.

If I understand your measurements you are checking toe from the center of the wheel to the front of the wheel rim. The manual gives toe in measurements from rear of the rim to the front or the rim, a longer distance than your method. That would also change the end results a little.

I have to agree with Hap, the rear thrust thrust needs to be known if you want the car to track. Strings work fine. You can square with a laser level or for that matter you can use a plumb-bob. A plumb-bob can also be used to set toe in.

FWIW, Clifton
G W
Evansville, Indiana, USA   usa

flash75 Wrote:
Quote: If I understand your measurements you are checking toe from the center of the wheel to the front of the wheel rim. The manual gives toe in measurements from rear of the rim to the front or the rim, a longer distance than your method. That would also change the end results a little.

Thanks fot the catch. I wrote that wrong.


Speedracer Avatar
Hap Waldrop
Greenville, SC, USA   usa
1967 MG MGB "The Biscuit"

Yes, there's nothing wrong with the laser for thrust alignment other that where it is attached, attaching it to wheel just doesn't cut it.



Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Performance Street/Race engines- modified heads, and DIY engine rebuilt kits
New alloy wheels options for MGBs, see vendors forum for details.
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,2657584
Be sure to check my engine rebuild kit thread in the Vendors forum for weekly tips. http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,1828263

Member Services:
MG/ Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines - Cylinder Head Porting - Modified SU HS Carbs - DIY Engine Rebuild Kits With Tech Advice - Alloy wheels for MGB/TR6
G W
Evansville, Indiana, USA   usa

Speedracer Wrote:
Quote: Yes, there's nothing wrong with the laser for thrust alignment other that where it is attached, attaching it to wheel just doesn't cut it.

Not everyone has to do it exactly how you do it. There are other ways to do things. I'll leave it at that!
Speedracer Avatar
Hap Waldrop
Greenville, SC, USA   usa
1967 MG MGB "The Biscuit"

My intention never was to make mad you Gary, but if you handle the truth, well here it is. I read your tech article, twice, just to make sure I didn't miss anything, and I can tell you firsthand I don't agree with anything in it. You start off by recommending 1/8" toe in for a car with a sloppy suspension, how about fixing the car so it will hold an alignment, 1/8" toe in is a ton, I would set toe in at 1/32" to 0".
I won't get into the thrust alignment thing again, but you need to do little bit more homework, because you clearly do not understand that just using a laser line mounted to rim, does nothing more than a center line toe adjustment and does not take the entire chassis into mind. Jacking the tire up is maybe the number #1 mistake you made, toe changes through suspension compression, this is called bump steer as mentioned above, no matter how much you try to recreate normal ride height, you still going to miss it, that's why no professional alignment device jacks the tire for alignment, most sit on turntables.

So Gary, I read it, I try to come here and explain nicely (well nicely for me) that you needed to rethink your method, but the truth of it, it's pretty much as bad as it gets and anyone here would be well served to not follow any of the advice in the tech article. Nevertheless I still applaud your effort.

If this makes you mad, well it was never my intentions, but this forum in my opinion exist to help people work on their cars, and from time to time even through our best efforts, we get it wrong, myself included and when that happens, I sure want people to call me out on it as well, after all we all fiquire things out better as a group than by ourselves. Happy Thanksgiving.



Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Performance Street/Race engines- modified heads, and DIY engine rebuilt kits
New alloy wheels options for MGBs, see vendors forum for details.
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,2657584
Be sure to check my engine rebuild kit thread in the Vendors forum for weekly tips. http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,1828263

Member Services:
MG/ Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines - Cylinder Head Porting - Modified SU HS Carbs - DIY Engine Rebuild Kits With Tech Advice - Alloy wheels for MGB/TR6
G W
Evansville, Indiana, USA   usa

Hap I wasn't talking about a front-end alignment just toe in. I never said thrust alignment wasn't a good idea.

I am glad you messed with $40,000 machines but saying it won’t work or just doesn’t cut it isn’t a discussion. I am not mad, I just don’t see a discussion, just flat criticism. Kind of hard to discus anything that way. You never ask how one could or would you just said it was hogwash.

The best point was made by Clifton. I do need to index the lasers and drop the car to measure. With the laser siting on the outside of the rim they are pretty damn close. This was the whole purpose of making a front and back measurement. By locating center you can see how far off the laser was indexed on the rim. Total off front and back was about ¼” at 11ft. That’s not bad. It would be very easy to index the rear then make the measurement.

As far as how much toe in is needed I am glad you have your own measurements but I just threw out what’s been accepted. I never said I run my car at 1/8” as I was explaining why it is a given number. I agree a sloppy suspension should be fixed. Everything in my car happens to be new bumper to bumper including the ball joints and steering raq. Not everyone’s is and not everyone plans on making those changes. Some just want a quick toe in check.

You can tell me it can’t be done with out any real reason but people have told me that all my life.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2006 12:50PM by gow589.
G W
Evansville, Indiana, USA   usa

Oh and Hap,

Hope the turkey was good yesterday! smiling smiley
Speedracer Avatar
Hap Waldrop
Greenville, SC, USA   usa
1967 MG MGB "The Biscuit"

Gary, sorry I made so much fuss about it all, do what you feel is right.



Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Performance Street/Race engines- modified heads, and DIY engine rebuilt kits
New alloy wheels options for MGBs, see vendors forum for details.
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,2657584
Be sure to check my engine rebuild kit thread in the Vendors forum for weekly tips. http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,1828263

Member Services:
MG/ Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines - Cylinder Head Porting - Modified SU HS Carbs - DIY Engine Rebuild Kits With Tech Advice - Alloy wheels for MGB/TR6
G W
Evansville, Indiana, USA   usa

Speedracer Wrote:
Quote: Gary, sorry I made so much fuss about it all, do what you feel is right.

Hap I welcome critisism just work wih me. I respect your judgement. Judjement (even if I can't spell it).

Happy holidays!
Speedracer Avatar
Hap Waldrop
Greenville, SC, USA   usa
1967 MG MGB "The Biscuit"

Oh let's don't get started on spellling, I'm just one baby step in front of Keenan when it comes to spelling smiling smiley



Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Performance Street/Race engines- modified heads, and DIY engine rebuilt kits
New alloy wheels options for MGBs, see vendors forum for details.
http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,2657584
Be sure to check my engine rebuild kit thread in the Vendors forum for weekly tips. http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?68,1828263

Member Services:
MG/ Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines - Cylinder Head Porting - Modified SU HS Carbs - DIY Engine Rebuild Kits With Tech Advice - Alloy wheels for MGB/TR6
. You can hide this ad & support this site by upgrading to a Gold Membership ~ click here for more info

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