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Adjusting Toe In

Posted by Norm73B 
Norm73B Avatar
Norm Peacey
Woodlawn, Ontario, Canada   can
1973 MG MGB "Prim"

I rebuilt my steering rack this winter and was considering an easier way to set the Toe In than on my back with a tape measure.
I was in a local garage (old fashion kind where the guys drink beer and drive flat head powered hot rods).
They had a 29 Ford roadster on the floor with strings tied to the inside of the back wheel spokes (wire wheels), wrapped around the tire and forward past the front wheels to a 2x4 fastened to the wall in front of the car. The strings where fastened to the 2x4 so they touched the front of the back wheel and ran past the centre of the front wheel. They measured from the string to the front and back of the front wheels, the difference was the toe in value for that side. Interesting they set the toe in at 1/8, the same as our Bs. Simple, easy, accurate and once the 2x4 is in place easy to reuse.

I will try it shortly but it just made so much sense. Will add pictures later.

Anyone else heard of this?
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rrmgb Avatar
robert schau
Reston, VA., USA   usa
1973 MG MGB
1973 MG MGB

All sorts of methods. FYI toe in spec is 1/16" - 3/32"
Scuff gauge works for me. Push one wheel on it and read the value, no strings attached. thumbs up smiley



"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."
Sir Winston Churchill
---------------------------------------------------------------
"It all starts in your mind's eye, then it goes to your heart
and finally to your very soul."
G.S.George PHD
mitchelld996 Avatar
Mitch D
Los Angeles, California, USA   usa

The book says to have toe-in between 1/32 and 1/16.
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bob goeckel
FLINT, MICHIGAN, USA   usa
1977 MG MGB "On The Road Again."

robert, i just checked on the scuff gauge. kwik-ezee said they were $225.00eye popping smiley. but they are not making them anymore. if that is what you were talking about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2011 10:54AM by rgoeckel.
rrmgb Avatar
robert schau
Reston, VA., USA   usa
1973 MG MGB
1973 MG MGB

In reply to a post by rgoeckel robert, i just checked on the scuff gauge. kwik-ezee said they were $225.00eye popping smiley. but they are not making them anymore. if that is what you were talking about.
Havent seen a kwik-ezee but probably works the same.
I just drive it to R&R and push it on! Always good to know someone who has one.
RS



"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time."
Sir Winston Churchill
---------------------------------------------------------------
"It all starts in your mind's eye, then it goes to your heart
and finally to your very soul."
G.S.George PHD
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bob goeckel
FLINT, MICHIGAN, USA   usa
1977 MG MGB "On The Road Again."

"r&r" ? i guess i'm a bit slow.
Jim Stabe Avatar
San Diego, California, USA   usa

Strings are a great way to set toe, especially if you have IRS. Racers will "string" their cars from a datum established from the centerline of the suspension pickup points so all corners of the car are square to the vehicle centerline. The problem is that it is time consuming to set up the strings. You have to locate the centerline then set up the outer strings equidistant and parallel to the centerline. After you do that, you can't move the car without setting it up all over again.

I am building a string setup into my car so it will be quick to set up and be repeatable. It will also allow the car to be moved without disturbing the strings. After adjusting the toe you should roll the car back and forth to settle the suspension and then remeasure.

I welded 1/2" nuts onto the bumper support so that I can screw in the brackets that hold the tubing front and rear. The brackets are designed to hold the tube at hub height at each end of the car. The tubes are 1/2" electrical conduit that have a groove turned at the center and grooves at each end to locate the side strings. The end grooves are equidistant from the centerline, both front and rear tubes are identical. To set it up the first time I put the car on a level surface. I set up a string on the centerline of the car that was equidistant from the front and rear inner pickup points of the suspension (I have IRS but a solid axle car could use the front spring hangars). I then adjusted the tubes back and forth in the brackets so that the centerline groove was directly over the centerline string (use a plumb bob) and locked the tubes in position with the thumb screws. When I had the tubes centered perfectly, I welded a washer to the tube on the driver's side of the bracket so that every time I assemble the rig it will be perfectly oriented to the centerline of the car. The car will then not have to be on a perfectly level surface to do the check.

You then run strings between the outer grooves and you have a perfect rectangle and you can measure directly from the string to the wheel rim. If you want to be deadly accurate you can spin each wheel and scribe a line on the tread. The toe specification is actually measured at the OD of the tire. If you know that your wheels run true you can do the math for what the measurement at the rim should be since it is much easier and quicker. You can roll the car back and forth to recheck your adjustments without disturbing the strings.

This is good for the autocrossers who want to dial in some toe out for the event and then set toe in for the drive home.



Jim

"If you want me to agree with you then we would both be wrong"

'66 MGB widened 11" with LT1 Chevy and 6 speed, C4 Corvette suspension
Pictures here Part 1 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,7581
Continued in Part 2 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,22422
Continued in Part 3 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,33108
Continued in Part 4 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,40751
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Norm73B Avatar
Norm Peacey
Woodlawn, Ontario, Canada   can
1973 MG MGB "Prim"

I will need to check as I do not know what a scuff gauge is.
I read somewhere that for radial tires the toe in should be 1/8 instead of the 1/16 to 1/32 for bias ply.
Can anyone confirm/correct me.
Norm73B Avatar
Norm Peacey
Woodlawn, Ontario, Canada   can
1973 MG MGB "Prim"

Jim, that is very interesting.
I wonder if one cold be made up that could be moved from car to car.
I will think about that.
Jim Stabe Avatar
San Diego, California, USA   usa

In reply to a post by Norm73B Jim, that is very interesting.
I wonder if one cold be made up that could be moved from car to car.
I will think about that.
You could do it but you would have to make sure that the brackets that the washer butts up against are exactly the same distance from the centerline on both cars. The brackets on the other side of the car aren't improtant. If they are two different kinds of car, just make sure the strings are wide enough apart to accomodate the widest vehicle.



Jim

"If you want me to agree with you then we would both be wrong"

'66 MGB widened 11" with LT1 Chevy and 6 speed, C4 Corvette suspension
Pictures here Part 1 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,7581
Continued in Part 2 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,22422
Continued in Part 3 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,33108
Continued in Part 4 http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?13,40751
Norm73B Avatar
Norm Peacey
Woodlawn, Ontario, Canada   can
1973 MG MGB "Prim"

Jim, I was thinking along the lines of the 2x4 but using your 1/2 inch conduit.
Each time I would have to set up to the back wheel first then measure the front.
Must be an easier, repeatable thing I can make that others could use.
Back in the 60s we had a square tube with adjustable legs and a fixed bracket on one end and a movable bracket on the other.
The thing was setup so the fixed bracket hit the mid point of the outside sidewall of the front tire and the movable one was fixed with a butterfly nut against the same point on the other front tire.
Move to the front of the wheels and measure the difference with a steel ruler.
Difference = toe in.
I wil have to think about that one a bit more.
Love the ideas from this place.
Speedracer Avatar
Hap Waldrop
Greenville, SC, USA   usa
1967 MG MGB "The Biscuit"

I do my own string alignments as well, nothing attached to the car, I made 4 hub center height platforms , if you will, but it cold be 4 jackstands as well, I measure the track F&R, it's not always the same on given car, then set the strings from the hub centers, once I have the car squared in the strings, I measure from the front and rear of wheel rims for toe readings. I use 4 squares of aluminum plate, I use two under each of the front wheels , with a mixture of grease and WD40 sandwiched between the paltes for cheap turntables (you can do the same thing 4 pieces of commerical tile). I have a very simple and cheap bubble camber gauge, for using on the cars I can adjust camber on.

You can do a alignment with very common and cheap tools if you understand what you are doing, we did this very thing at our last car club tech session.



Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Performance/Race engines-heads, and DIY engine rebuilt kits
New alloy wheels options for MGBs, see vendors forum for details.

Acme Speed Shop   – Greenville, SC USA MG/ Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines - Cylinder Head Porting - Modified SU HS Carbs - DIY Engine Rebuild Kits With Tech Advice - Alloy wheels for MGB/TR6
Peter-Sherman Avatar
Peter Sherman
Melbourne, Australia   aus

I just take it for a drive. Adjust adjust. then I drive it on tram tracks, if it is squeaking on the steel, there is too much toe in.
RSS Avatar
RSS Gold Member
R SS
Virginia, USA   usa

In reply to a post by Peter-Sherman ...then I drive it on tram tracks, if it is squeaking on the steel, there is too much toe in.

And if you hear rumbling, you're not going fast enough. eye popping smiley



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GILMGA Avatar
Gil Dupre
Chattanooga, TN, USA   usa
1962 MG MGA
1974 MG MGB GT

I use a spring loaded curtain rod. Line up front and rear tires on driver side with laser leverler. Insert curtain rod on front rims same distant from floor,mark rim for reference, mark where slide edge is on curtain rod with then pencil,
rotate wheel to rear of then insert the curtain rod. Mark where the slide on rod is. The difference is toe. Adjust the oposite from side that is aligend with rear. Check front and rear wheel alignment with laser. Hope stering wheel is centered.



Gil
Peter-Sherman Avatar
Peter Sherman
Melbourne, Australia   aus

In reply to a post by RSS
In reply to a post by Peter-Sherman ...then I drive it on tram tracks, if it is squeaking on the steel, there is too much toe in.

And if you hear rumbling, you're not going fast enough. eye popping smiley

smiling smiley

yes you do indeed need to keep out of the way of W class trams, they weight 17 tonnes empty. Lot's of caste iron.
I was riding on one once when it drifted slowly into a Big outback style 4WD with all the bush bashing gear on it. Slowest collision I've ever seen and it went through that car like it didn't exist. Can still see the drivers face as he climbed rapidly into the back seat while the tram removed the entire side and front corner of the car and its assorted bull bars etc. The tram had a broken light and a scratch, that's it.
The Wiz Avatar
Mike The Wiz Barnes
STL, MO, USA   usa
1969 MG MGB GT
1971 MG MGB GT "Blueberry"
1979 MG MGB "PopTop"
2000 Ford Ranger SC4x4
2001 Mercedes-Benz SLK 230 Kompressor

In reply to a post by mitchelld996 The book says to have toe-in between 1/32 and 1/16.

It depends on the book, I was reading one today that said 5/32 +/-1/32.



Nulla tenaci invia est via



1971 MGBGT, overdrive, Limey relay and fuse kits, Rick Ingram struts all round, Jeff Schlemmer points distributor, mgccars.com alternator, Basil Adams camshaft and side cover, Eurospec tail lights, 1976 dashboard and console, 1999 Chevy cavalier seats, GM heater motor and fan with Ford 3 speed controller, Ford Merkur/Sierra parcel shelf, cruise control.

1979 B, Olds 215 engine with 1996 Landrover heads, Carter AFB, Camaro T5 gearbox, Limey relay kit, Rick Ingram struts all round, mgccars alternator, Jeff Schlemmer distributor with Petronix, Eurospec tail lights, cruise control, 99 Pontiac Sunfire seats.

1969 MGBGT, Miata seats, late centre console, apart from that it's stock!
mrbarry Avatar
michael barry
dover tn, USA   usa
1979 MG MGB "Moanin' Joan"
1991 Ford Bronco

Should you inquire of a Hyper-Miler the suggestion would be to set -0- [ZERO] .. less tire wear no scrub better fuel mileage ..
there are new autos set to Zero ..

it will make them a wee bit twitchy

with a tendency to dart.. and not track back in corner..

,,

i set and suggest set [this said with a million miles behind the wheel]

to the minimum measurable toe -in for best response , tire wear and fuel efficiency.. minimum measurable on my device is 1/16 IN ..


GOSH 1/16 IN is Factory Spec ..

what do you Know .What do you think . perhaps those Abington Chaps were far ahead of the time.......
Speedracer Avatar
Hap Waldrop
Greenville, SC, USA   usa
1967 MG MGB "The Biscuit"

A tick of toe in is a very predictable feel, and this set up feels more comforatble to most folks, and there is really no other reason to set up a street MGB any differently. On race cars as driver get more experienced, they will often play alot with toe settings, zero will cause less resistence in straight line, but you have to mind the car a bit more on the straights, as it can roam a bit, then some drivers play with just a tick of toe out, this makes the car turn in incredibly quick, probaby so quick it would scare the living crap out of most folks at speed. Overal a tick of toein , gives most folks the feel they fell most comfortable with when cornering and driving in a straight line.



Hap Waldrop
Acme Speed Shop
864-370-3000
Performance/Race engines-heads, and DIY engine rebuilt kits
New alloy wheels options for MGBs, see vendors forum for details.

Acme Speed Shop   – Greenville, SC USA MG/ Triumph Performance Street/Race Engines - Cylinder Head Porting - Modified SU HS Carbs - DIY Engine Rebuild Kits With Tech Advice - Alloy wheels for MGB/TR6
cfrantz Avatar
Chris Frantz
Mississippi, USA   usa
1957 MG MGA
1964 MG MGB

The main reason for toe-in is to account for the "slop" in the suspension and steering joints when the car is moving. On a rear wheel drive car you use toe-in to compensate for the rolling friction on the tires loading the suspension and steering joints. The theory (also in practice) is that toeing the tires in a little the will compensate for them being pulled back close to zero when driving down the road.

Front wheel drive cars generally are the opposite and use toe-out. Being that the front wheels pull the car forward, the "slop" in suspension and steering joints would permit the tires to go to a zero to toe-in position when driving down the road.
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