MGB & GT Forum
Really Frustrating Brake Squeal Problem
Posted by lewisrn
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Jul 24, 2016 05:31 PM
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I have been fighting brake squeal for more than a year. Here is the sequence of events, in order. Keep in mind that before this list of events began, I had never, ever, had brake squeal in the 6 years I have owned this 80B.
1. Running online parts store rebuilt calipers, stock rotors and pads and rubber brake hoses. No squealing, but I noticed that the right front rotor was getting very hot after only a few miles. Then, I experienced a warped rotor.
2. Assuming the warped rotor was caused by a caliper, I installed new SS front brake hoses, new Moss calipers with Moss grooved and slotted rotors with ceramic pads. Brake squeal began soon after.
3. Tried anti-squeal goop on the pads, then spray, then shims. No help.
4. Bought and installed generic Autozone pads. Squealed before I got out of the driveway
4. Installed new moss solid rotors and basic pads and reinstalled the old calipers. No squealing
5. After 3500 mile round trip, had a warped rotor. I assumed old calipers caused it
6. Removed rotors and had them turned. NOTE During removal of the wheel bearings to get the rotors turned, noticed that one bearing race was spinning inside hub. Strong suspicion that was what was causing the hub & rotor to heat up and warp the rotor. Replaced the hub.
7. Bought and installed new calipers (third set!) from MGOC. Brakes soon started squealing.
8. Reinstalled old calipers - no squealing. Fingers crossed that I won't get a warped rotor.
For the life of me, I can't understand how only changing calipers, especially two different sets of brand new calipers could cause brake squeal.
“Ideological certainty easily degenerates into an insistence upon ignorance". Daniel Patrick Moynihan
In any debate, the side which strays from civil discussion is usually the side that lacks confidence in its debate position or in the merit of their arguments. Making personal attacks on the opponents instead of staying on the subject is also a sign of weakness.
Anyone who feels compelled to respond in kind to any perceived slight is often suffering from narcissism.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2016-07-24 05:47 PM by lewisrn.
1. Running online parts store rebuilt calipers, stock rotors and pads and rubber brake hoses. No squealing, but I noticed that the right front rotor was getting very hot after only a few miles. Then, I experienced a warped rotor.
2. Assuming the warped rotor was caused by a caliper, I installed new SS front brake hoses, new Moss calipers with Moss grooved and slotted rotors with ceramic pads. Brake squeal began soon after.
3. Tried anti-squeal goop on the pads, then spray, then shims. No help.
4. Bought and installed generic Autozone pads. Squealed before I got out of the driveway
4. Installed new moss solid rotors and basic pads and reinstalled the old calipers. No squealing
5. After 3500 mile round trip, had a warped rotor. I assumed old calipers caused it
6. Removed rotors and had them turned. NOTE During removal of the wheel bearings to get the rotors turned, noticed that one bearing race was spinning inside hub. Strong suspicion that was what was causing the hub & rotor to heat up and warp the rotor. Replaced the hub.
7. Bought and installed new calipers (third set!) from MGOC. Brakes soon started squealing.
8. Reinstalled old calipers - no squealing. Fingers crossed that I won't get a warped rotor.
For the life of me, I can't understand how only changing calipers, especially two different sets of brand new calipers could cause brake squeal.
“Ideological certainty easily degenerates into an insistence upon ignorance". Daniel Patrick Moynihan
In any debate, the side which strays from civil discussion is usually the side that lacks confidence in its debate position or in the merit of their arguments. Making personal attacks on the opponents instead of staying on the subject is also a sign of weakness.
Anyone who feels compelled to respond in kind to any perceived slight is often suffering from narcissism.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2016-07-24 05:47 PM by lewisrn.
Jul 24, 2016 09:28 PM
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My 1969 MGC has had brake squeal since I put in on the road in 1996.
Changes in pads, etc, did nothing.
No rotor warp...no excessive pad wear....etc, etc, etc.
I now refer to it as my "distant early warning system'".
1952 MGTD - 1969 MGC - 1972 MGB - 1974&1/2 MGB/GT V8 conversion - 1978 MGB
mowog1@aol.com
Changes in pads, etc, did nothing.
No rotor warp...no excessive pad wear....etc, etc, etc.
I now refer to it as my "distant early warning system'".
1952 MGTD - 1969 MGC - 1972 MGB - 1974&1/2 MGB/GT V8 conversion - 1978 MGB
mowog1@aol.com
Member Services:
Pieces of Eight! has provided gas-charged bonnet & bootlid strut kits for the MGB/MGC and hatch kits for the MGB/GT-MGC/GT since 1996. We have recently added MG Midget bonnet and bootlid kits to inventory. Contact Rick at: mowog1@aol.com
Topic Creator (OP)
Jul 24, 2016 09:34 PM
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In reply to # 3317931 by mowog1
My 1969 MGC has had brake squeal since I put in on the road in 1996.
Changes in pads, etc, did nothing.
No rotor warp...no excessive pad wear....etc, etc, etc.
I now refer to it as my "distant early warning system'".
Changes in pads, etc, did nothing.
No rotor warp...no excessive pad wear....etc, etc, etc.
I now refer to it as my "distant early warning system'".
I've read quite a bit about brake squeal on the old inter-web and there's nothing, that I have found, about a caliper causing it.
I have also talked to one of the experienced professional MG mechanics in Indy and he has no idea why the squeal follows two new sets of calipers.
Hopefully someone here will offer some explanation.
“Ideological certainty easily degenerates into an insistence upon ignorance". Daniel Patrick Moynihan
In any debate, the side which strays from civil discussion is usually the side that lacks confidence in its debate position or in the merit of their arguments. Making personal attacks on the opponents instead of staying on the subject is also a sign of weakness.
Anyone who feels compelled to respond in kind to any perceived slight is often suffering from narcissism.
Jul 24, 2016 09:57 PM
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I believe it's more of a harmonic problem.
It does not effect braking.
I stopped worrying about it.
1952 MGTD - 1969 MGC - 1972 MGB - 1974&1/2 MGB/GT V8 conversion - 1978 MGB
mowog1@aol.com
It does not effect braking.
I stopped worrying about it.
1952 MGTD - 1969 MGC - 1972 MGB - 1974&1/2 MGB/GT V8 conversion - 1978 MGB
mowog1@aol.com
Member Services:
Pieces of Eight! has provided gas-charged bonnet & bootlid strut kits for the MGB/MGC and hatch kits for the MGB/GT-MGC/GT since 1996. We have recently added MG Midget bonnet and bootlid kits to inventory. Contact Rick at: mowog1@aol.com
rdgreen
Robert Green
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Jul 24, 2016 10:16 PM
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Jul 24, 2016 11:05 PM
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In reply to # 3317956 by rdgreen
I had similar problems and the only solution I could find, after trying everything else I could think of, was to grind a 6mm chamfer on the leading and trailing edges of the pads. It worked...but I have no idea why.
This has usually worked for me, but never done it on MGBs because I've never had a noise problem with MGBs for some reason. Plenty of other cars though!
Friends talking around a fire is the history of mankind.
Bobcat-888 thanked Rod H. for this post
Jul 24, 2016 11:34 PM
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I'm just trying to think this through logically. From what you've said, the new calipers cause the squealing but the old calipers don't. If you put the old calipers (that don't squeal) right next to the new calipers (off the car) and compared them item by item, there must be some difference. There must be something different in the way they move, their construction, something designed a little differently, who knows? If you figured that out, maybe you could change the new calipers just enough to stop the squealing, grind down an edge, adjust it a little, etc. Maybe the old calipers just move the pads slightly differently at a slightly different angle? Maybe the calipers gradually took a slightly different "set" after long use like your (actual) shoes do to your (actual) feet. Sometime old parts adjust themselves to the job. A new part wants the car to adjust itself to it.
Can you tell if the squealing is the some on both sides? Probably not.
Or learn to live with the noise.
But first I suppose I'd play around with various different brake pads and see if any of them made a difference.
Drew Maddock, So. Calif. USofA
Can you tell if the squealing is the some on both sides? Probably not.
Or learn to live with the noise.
But first I suppose I'd play around with various different brake pads and see if any of them made a difference.
Drew Maddock, So. Calif. USofA
Jul 25, 2016 02:57 AM
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Disc brakes squeal, that's ok.
Disc brakes grind that's not.
Michael J. Caputo
'79, '77, '76, '74.5 (rubber dual SU), and '73 owner. Extensive experience in 12v Audio System design and installation. Vendor of Regalia and Promotional Products since 1993. Supplier of Accessories to MOSS. Forum Member since 2009; with a warped sense of humor since birth. Publisher of the annual MGB & GT Calendar, mailed worldwide.
Disc brakes grind that's not.
Michael J. Caputo
'79, '77, '76, '74.5 (rubber dual SU), and '73 owner. Extensive experience in 12v Audio System design and installation. Vendor of Regalia and Promotional Products since 1993. Supplier of Accessories to MOSS. Forum Member since 2009; with a warped sense of humor since birth. Publisher of the annual MGB & GT Calendar, mailed worldwide.
Member Services:
Please send photos for next year's calendar to photos25@mgbcalendar.com. If you need help with your Weber downdraft carburetor, feel free to call me at 978-249-5760, USA, Central Time!
Jul 25, 2016 04:26 AM
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Hi Guys,
I don't normally write on here but i had the same problem and found the cause, well at least for my issue anyway.
I bought new calipers (one had seized on) and new discs, lines etc. Initially it was fine but as the brakes got hot from general use they would start to squeal. If the car sat for a few mins it would be fine again. Spinning the wheel when it was jacked showed no interference and nothing visible.
Anyway, after several experiments (and a wheel locking up going through the Swiss alps!!!) i found that the disk was in fact slightly too big and when it expanded due to being heated up from braking it would rub the inside of the caliper body and cause the squeal. Once cooled down, the disc would return to normal size and be fine.
A hasty bit of filing around the edge of the disc solved the problem. This might be nothing like your issue but it can easily be checked if the edge of the disc is shiny or if you can notice wear on the inside of the caliper.
Tom
I don't normally write on here but i had the same problem and found the cause, well at least for my issue anyway.
I bought new calipers (one had seized on) and new discs, lines etc. Initially it was fine but as the brakes got hot from general use they would start to squeal. If the car sat for a few mins it would be fine again. Spinning the wheel when it was jacked showed no interference and nothing visible.
Anyway, after several experiments (and a wheel locking up going through the Swiss alps!!!) i found that the disk was in fact slightly too big and when it expanded due to being heated up from braking it would rub the inside of the caliper body and cause the squeal. Once cooled down, the disc would return to normal size and be fine.
A hasty bit of filing around the edge of the disc solved the problem. This might be nothing like your issue but it can easily be checked if the edge of the disc is shiny or if you can notice wear on the inside of the caliper.
Tom
Donthuis
Don van Riet
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Jul 25, 2016 04:44 AM
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Since you followed all the logical steps I will only advise you on my own experience with squealing brakes. Maybe following my simple example is worth a try?
1) never had squealing front brakes for over 30 years, then on the one but last pad change it came up and never went away. Cold or hot brakes made no difference either.
2) changed pads once again by the standard, cheap padset (NOS, but not asbestos) from my first parts provider still having them lying around. Still squealing continued unabated..
3) my rotors are different: one is still flat after 25 years or so, the other slightly grooved, so I started by renewing the calipers and brakehoses only: squealing continued
4) on advice from my present partsprovider I left the rotors in, but got the relatively cheap "V8 pads" from him. They seem to have metal particles inside and have chamfered edges on the sides
Result: much more progressive braking than ever and all squealing was immediately gone and stayed away for say over 99,9% of my braking actions
There is slight brake judder above 60 mph on light braking onset, once pedal pressure is higher it is immediately gone.
Probably the effect of this grooved rotor? No reason to renew though, I am happy as it is...
PS My parts provider told me present rotors are of softer metal than the old ones. All the more reason not to have the rotors skimmed
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-07-25 04:44 AM by Donthuis.
1) never had squealing front brakes for over 30 years, then on the one but last pad change it came up and never went away. Cold or hot brakes made no difference either.
2) changed pads once again by the standard, cheap padset (NOS, but not asbestos) from my first parts provider still having them lying around. Still squealing continued unabated..
3) my rotors are different: one is still flat after 25 years or so, the other slightly grooved, so I started by renewing the calipers and brakehoses only: squealing continued
4) on advice from my present partsprovider I left the rotors in, but got the relatively cheap "V8 pads" from him. They seem to have metal particles inside and have chamfered edges on the sides
Result: much more progressive braking than ever and all squealing was immediately gone and stayed away for say over 99,9% of my braking actions
There is slight brake judder above 60 mph on light braking onset, once pedal pressure is higher it is immediately gone.
Probably the effect of this grooved rotor? No reason to renew though, I am happy as it is...
PS My parts provider told me present rotors are of softer metal than the old ones. All the more reason not to have the rotors skimmed
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-07-25 04:44 AM by Donthuis.
Jul 25, 2016 06:46 AM
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In reply to # 3318050 by Donthuis
My parts provider told me present rotors are of softer metal than the old ones.
And you believed them ?
I have no doubt that there are substandard items on the market but as a blanket statement there is no foundation for it in fact.
In cases of persistent squealing, including on my own car, changing to different pads has always eliminated it, it beggars belief the lengths Bob had to go to and equally baffling how he warped not one but two rotors along the way, some people have all the bad luck !
about 6 years and 7 months later...
Mar 20, 2023 07:11 PM
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I've been fighting the same brake squeal for a year. Started after installing trw stainless piston calipers, trw drilled/slotted rotors and trw ceramic pads (,and all new hoses, master, booster, rear shoes, whl cyls and hardware). My parts guy sent me a different set of oversized pads for free, good a day or so and squealing again. Ordered a different pair of cross drilled rotors, good a day or so and squealing. Those rotors quickly warped under 1 hard panic stop situation so I very carefully machined the trw rotors I had removed and reinstalled them. Nice and smooth again but squealing. After much frustration, I ordered ebc greenstuff pads. It now squeals worse than ever. Louder, longer, way more consistent. Not sometimes, every time. I researched this a while back and someone had mentioned the original calipers having some notches cut into the piston where it contacts the pad. I'm at the point now where I ready to give up on the performance oriented parts and just order a cheap, oe parts, front brake kit and see what happens. The only other option seems to be replacing the calipers with originals. As a 25 year automotive mechanic I'm confident it not in my work. The only thing I haven't tried is grinding a chamfer onto the pads. I suppose I should try that next as it's free....
Mar 20, 2023 07:58 PM
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O.K. Deep breath. .. I will ask those who have the squealing problem this question. “Do you have the original internal hub set-up with the bearing spacer, etc., or has the spacer been removed and the hub and bearings been set-up the “American way”, ie., with no spacer and by feel when assembling?”
This may prove interesting!
Some folks may suppose the original factory set-up with the bearing spacer, shims and torqued hub nut - provides a more rigid and stable hub structure and assembly which therefore, results in less or no, vibration/squeal situation.
This is speculation however - but a simple poll could be revealing. (I don’t know how to set one up here). FWIW I don’t think any of the fancy cross-drilled and slotted rotors are necessary for a street car. Do they contribute to - or are they neutral to the problem? Also, original (rebuilt) Lockheed calipers or new aftermarket? Do the squealing vs non-squealing calipers have cut-out pistons or flat-faced ones? I have heard or read where the solid rotors and cheap semi-metallic pads are a good combo. When running my old 72 B, in the 80’s and 90’s I never recalled having any brake squealing problems and I was running the cheapest rotors and pads there were, but with original factory stock un-rebuilt calipers! I also maintained the original shimmed and torqued hub spacer set-up.
Please, somebody do a spreadsheet!
My popcorn is almost ready!
Brian W.
“You don’t know what you don’t know.” Therefore…Ask questions.
“ No matter how little or how much money you have, being able to give a helping hand to others is the greatest gift money can give.”
“I have found that I always learn much by keeping my mouth shut and listening, rather than talking. I have never been able to recall learning anything by talking.”
This may prove interesting!
Some folks may suppose the original factory set-up with the bearing spacer, shims and torqued hub nut - provides a more rigid and stable hub structure and assembly which therefore, results in less or no, vibration/squeal situation.
This is speculation however - but a simple poll could be revealing. (I don’t know how to set one up here). FWIW I don’t think any of the fancy cross-drilled and slotted rotors are necessary for a street car. Do they contribute to - or are they neutral to the problem? Also, original (rebuilt) Lockheed calipers or new aftermarket? Do the squealing vs non-squealing calipers have cut-out pistons or flat-faced ones? I have heard or read where the solid rotors and cheap semi-metallic pads are a good combo. When running my old 72 B, in the 80’s and 90’s I never recalled having any brake squealing problems and I was running the cheapest rotors and pads there were, but with original factory stock un-rebuilt calipers! I also maintained the original shimmed and torqued hub spacer set-up.
Please, somebody do a spreadsheet!
My popcorn is almost ready!
Brian W.
“You don’t know what you don’t know.” Therefore…Ask questions.
“ No matter how little or how much money you have, being able to give a helping hand to others is the greatest gift money can give.”
“I have found that I always learn much by keeping my mouth shut and listening, rather than talking. I have never been able to recall learning anything by talking.”
Mar 20, 2023 08:04 PM
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I had the same experience for two years with six different pads, new Brembo rotors, new calipers, new wheel bearings set up with shims. Still endless squeal. Then I got some original Lockheed calipers, and had them rebuilt by Apple Hydraulics with notched pistons. No more squeal. The repro calipers are not machined correctly, leading to misaligned pistons that vibrate. There is a detailed video available demonstrating this.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
Mar 20, 2023 10:46 PM
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