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Oiling and banked oval
Posted by professor
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Feb 11, 2016 06:49 PM
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Hi folks,
Has anybody run on a high banked oval, driving a wet sump MGB, and had to modify the pan, or oil pump to prevent oil starvation while on the incline. Our present oil pan and pick up have been extended 2 inches, holding 6 quarts, with a windage sceen . Also has a 1970's Huffaker style horizontal plate in the pan and we have a 2 quart accusump. Looking forward for info from any one who has run an MGB on high banks .
Thank you,
Leigh
.
Has anybody run on a high banked oval, driving a wet sump MGB, and had to modify the pan, or oil pump to prevent oil starvation while on the incline. Our present oil pan and pick up have been extended 2 inches, holding 6 quarts, with a windage sceen . Also has a 1970's Huffaker style horizontal plate in the pan and we have a 2 quart accusump. Looking forward for info from any one who has run an MGB on high banks .
Thank you,
Leigh
.
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Dave Headley
Cortez, 4 corners, Colorado, USA
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Feb 11, 2016 06:56 PM
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Feb 11, 2016 07:22 PM
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I hope to run some SCCA events at Iowa Speedway next year and if I do I will put one of Dave's sumps with a Fontana Fin on my Fab-Tek B motor (really an SBC). This is part oval--part infield road course like Daytona. I attended the event last year as a spectator and talked to lots of racers about setup and oiling. Most of the entrants were in Miati, and they all used Accusumps with no special sump mods. None of them had any oil pressure issues. I have an Accusump, but it is used only for cold-motor pre-lube and is then shut off, per directions from Dave based on how he has designed his sump. Most racers do not use the Accusump that way. My sense is that if you leave the Accusump open, you should be fine, depending perhaps on the angle of the bank and how long you will be on it.
Topic Creator (OP)
Feb 11, 2016 09:33 PM
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Thank you Dave and Don. I can always count on excellent advice from this forum. We hope to run at Auto Club Speedway this coming Fall and without a dry sump, we have to do what is necessary to keep oil pressure up. As this is a combined road course and oval, I would hope the accusump should provide some coverage for 15-60 seconds of low oil pressure. That is if the accusump is working properly, as in not leaking and with the 7-10 lb pre charge. I am told the oval portion of the course is about 2/5 of the total length.
I am sure adding a Fontana Fin is wise for added protection. The name alone has a good ring, maybe I will start a seafood restaurant, if I can use the name. Nice to hear the Miata's not having an issue. Maybe their stock sump has a few factory goodies?
Leigh
I am sure adding a Fontana Fin is wise for added protection. The name alone has a good ring, maybe I will start a seafood restaurant, if I can use the name. Nice to hear the Miata's not having an issue. Maybe their stock sump has a few factory goodies?
Leigh
Feb 12, 2016 06:47 AM
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Leigh:
Good question about how the "standard Miata race sump," if there is such a thing, is configured. Maybe Fred M. can comment. Perhaps the standard Miata race approach already accommodates use on an oval, and that the Accusump was not really necessary on those cars.
The Fab-Tek sump made by Dave has a larger capacity than most, for one thing, but beyond that I do not know how much internal design on that or any MGB race pan is devoted to oil displacement which is both lateral and horizontal; and whether B sump design parameters for road racing differ from and are in tension with oval racing requirements.
Apparently not, if Dave can add a Fontana Fin and his motor is still happy in the corkscrew at Grattan and the carousel at Road America; although his has only recently been available may still be in the beta test phase. (This is why he pays me $1,000 per run session, which I believe is the renegotiated number for 2016---right Dave?)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-02-12 06:49 AM by dcharnet.
Good question about how the "standard Miata race sump," if there is such a thing, is configured. Maybe Fred M. can comment. Perhaps the standard Miata race approach already accommodates use on an oval, and that the Accusump was not really necessary on those cars.
The Fab-Tek sump made by Dave has a larger capacity than most, for one thing, but beyond that I do not know how much internal design on that or any MGB race pan is devoted to oil displacement which is both lateral and horizontal; and whether B sump design parameters for road racing differ from and are in tension with oval racing requirements.
Apparently not, if Dave can add a Fontana Fin and his motor is still happy in the corkscrew at Grattan and the carousel at Road America; although his has only recently been available may still be in the beta test phase. (This is why he pays me $1,000 per run session, which I believe is the renegotiated number for 2016---right Dave?)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-02-12 06:49 AM by dcharnet.
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Dave Headley
Cortez, 4 corners, Colorado, USA
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Feb 12, 2016 08:35 AM
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Feb 12, 2016 08:54 AM
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Google is been no help so I appeal to a higher authority - what is a Fontana Fin?
Eric Russell ~ Mebane, NC
1961 MGA #61, 1981 Alfa Romeo GTV6, 1984 Alfa Romeo Spider, 1991 Honda ST1100
Eric Russell ~ Mebane, NC
1961 MGA #61, 1981 Alfa Romeo GTV6, 1984 Alfa Romeo Spider, 1991 Honda ST1100
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Dave Headley
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Feb 12, 2016 10:29 AM
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Eric, sorry for any name based confusion. It's just a name I gave to a flat piece of sheet metal, about 2" wide welded to the RH edge of the pan flush with the sealing flange. It is intended to keep oil from climbing up the side of the engine under high G LH turns as encountered when driving CCW on an oval track. The West coast racers I referenced race on the speedway in "Fontana" Ca.
Feb 12, 2016 12:34 PM
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So with the car sitting level the fin is horizontal?
On a high-banked oval is there that much sideways centrifugal force?
Eric Russell ~ Mebane, NC
1961 MGA #61, 1981 Alfa Romeo GTV6, 1984 Alfa Romeo Spider, 1991 Honda ST1100
On a high-banked oval is there that much sideways centrifugal force?
Eric Russell ~ Mebane, NC
1961 MGA #61, 1981 Alfa Romeo GTV6, 1984 Alfa Romeo Spider, 1991 Honda ST1100
Feb 12, 2016 01:09 PM
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Dave Headley
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Feb 12, 2016 06:22 PM
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Feb 13, 2016 09:42 PM
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I have had my car on several fairly high banked ovals; Daytona, Iowa Speedway and Gateway in St. Louis. No oiling problems at any of these tracks. For Daytona I had a pan that Dave made for me. At both Iowa and Gateway I had a pan similar to a Huffaker pan, but with the addition of a crank scraper. The scraper I believe would act in a similar fashion to the Fontana fin described above.
My car does have an accusump. For the ovals I used the accusump to tell if I was having an oiling problem. Even if I didn't notice a pressure drop on the gages, if the accusump was hot when coming off the track I would know that pressure had dropped and the accusump was replenished with hot oil. The accusump never got hot at any of these tracks.
Jerry
My car does have an accusump. For the ovals I used the accusump to tell if I was having an oiling problem. Even if I didn't notice a pressure drop on the gages, if the accusump was hot when coming off the track I would know that pressure had dropped and the accusump was replenished with hot oil. The accusump never got hot at any of these tracks.
Jerry
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Feb 14, 2016 10:21 AM
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In reply to # 3193991 by Jerry Lamb
I have had my car on several fairly high banked ovals; Daytona, Iowa Speedway and Gateway in St. Louis. No oiling problems at any of these tracks. For Daytona I had a pan that Dave made for me. At both Iowa and Gateway I had a pan similar to a Huffaker pan, but with the addition of a crank scraper. The scraper I believe would act in a similar fashion to the Fontana fin described above.
My car does have an accusump. For the ovals I used the accusump to tell if I was having an oiling problem. Even if I didn't notice a pressure drop on the gages, if the accusump was hot when coming off the track I would know that pressure had dropped and the accusump was replenished with hot oil. The accusump never got hot at any of these tracks.
Jerry
My car does have an accusump. For the ovals I used the accusump to tell if I was having an oiling problem. Even if I didn't notice a pressure drop on the gages, if the accusump was hot when coming off the track I would know that pressure had dropped and the accusump was replenished with hot oil. The accusump never got hot at any of these tracks.
Jerry
Same deal as Jerry, I never had any issues with #9 at Daytona, or Charlotte, Huffaker style pan, and accusump. Same deal with the Midget using the WC super comp pan. Hopefully I never waste any time in the Biscuit racing on rovals, been there, done that
Hap Waldrop
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Feb 14, 2016 10:34 AM
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Topic Creator (OP)
Feb 14, 2016 11:37 PM
Joined 17 years ago
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Very informative discussion everyone. - thank you. One more question and please bear with me for asking. With the sump mods shown in the attached diagram - that is extended pan, Huffaker surge baffle with a windage screen mounted 2 inches above the baflfle, 2 quart accusump. Should we add the Headley dam /Fontana Fin as well to prevent oil climbing the pan side, or is the existing pan enough protection. Will be running at.Auto Club Speedway. I am reading that Jerry and Hap are saying that the fin or scraper might not be necessary, but maybe a good idea just in case? Dave , thanks for sharing your expertise on the Fontana fin - much appreciated. Please see attached Huffaker pan schematic we are using.
Leigh
Leigh
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