ID Squeal Noise (Video)

Ok, I've been dealing with a squealing noise that is driving me nuts and a created a host of other issues, now resolved.

I have a new alternator (Saturn conversion) and belt (Gates 7375) on the car, a'79 MGB. The squeal noise is now worse than ever. The pulleys sure look aligned to me.

Or is this the water pump?

Here's the short video:

http://rides.webshots.com/video/3034323660062237293PNQgJg

I would remove te belt and check the water pump shaft for play. Î bet it's shot...

Watch the video again and watch the bolts holding the air pump pulley to the water pump,
. Looks like the pulley slows with the squeel, I think your water pump is shot but others will chime in soon.

As Andy notes, just remove the belt and start the engine for a moment to see if the squeal goes away.

I made another short video showing the movement of the pulleys with the belt removed.

The Alternator pulley, makes a squeaking noise when turned clockwise and has some resistance. It seems to catch as I turn it by hand, not exactly smooth turning. It was new, so I didn't think to spin it before installation. The cooling fan is clear and touches nothing. After a few mintues of running, the belt pulley was warm, should it be? It's been sitting for 30 minutes or so and the alternator housing is still warm.

The pulley to the water pump spins freely and makes no noise (see the video). It might have the tinest bit of play but is dry underneath.

I suspect this alternator is causing the noise - is there anything I could have done to it?

http://rides.webshots.com/video/3099076320062237293wsgrRZ

Looks like you found the culpret....

I agree with andy.The rotating bolts seem to change speed with the squeal,Almost like it slows down or wobbles when it happens each time.Deffinately looking at a new water pump.
I'm thinking that it's almost seizing up with each shreak and causing the belt to slip as it strains to turn it.

Good think you have a spare.

Mark

I agree. The video shows the pulley slowing with the squeal. Stay right there, you've found it!

First, the alternator turns in the same direction as the engine. Second, it should turn a lot easier than that. Suspect a bad bearing is probably your problem. It's POSSIBLE you could lube that, but it probably would not last.

nice job of trouble shooting and showing the problem with the videos. Great looking engine compartment too.

That's always been my concern with "lifetime" warranty rebuilt components from the big chain parts houses. How many times can you change the same part in a lifetime? Of course, remanufactured parts tend to be a crapshoot from any source.

Once purchased a rebuilt starter for a 280ZX from Autozone. Didn't last, had it replaced, also didn't last. Finally went to the junkyard, got a used one, worked fine, never had a problem from then on out.

Al,

You could try looping a fan belt around the alternator pulley and around the chuck of your electric drill and (carefully, please...) running the drill at its highest speed in the appropriate direction to see if you can precipitate the noise. Then do likewise with the water pump. Should steer you to the culprit...

Dick

Guys, I'm stumped here.

This evening, I put on a new alternator and a new water pump. Squealing is worse than ever. No belt and there is no squeal. I put the old belt on and it was a little less, but after driving for a few miles, it broke the belt. I had put an 1/8" shim on the alternator mount, so I pulled that off (there was no shim on the original setup).

I put the new belt on, the squealing is really bad. I took a short video, but it was so bad, I didn't want to let it run very long.

http://rides.webshots.com/video/3006533600062237293AozYhk

I'm really don't know what else to do or check..

Is there any chance the crankshaft pulley isn't on correctly? I torqued it down to the factory spec (70 ft-lbs) and bent the lock washer.

Al,

Is it possible that the impeller of the water pump is hitting the cylinder wall of cylinder number 1 inside the block? Did you try spinning the alternator and then the water pump by using a drill and the belt?

Dick

Have you tried the put the end of a long screwdriver on the potentially offending component and listen w/ your ear near the handle trick?

(of course, keep your wits about you when trying this approach. i.e. Be Careful).

I'd bet its pulley alignment. They have to line up perfectly.

I spoke to Dick M. today and he gave me some items to trouble-shoot. In working backwards, I mentioned the alternator pulley gets too hot to touch after only few minutes of running and this should not be. Dick and I now suspect something electrical. I suspect the pulley may get so hot, it is breaking the belt? Unfortunately, I'm out of town tonight. He suggested pulling the two power leads to the alternator and seeing if the squeal is still present. I'll also check the voltage at the battery, starter and alternator post. I think my pulley is aligned precisely. Dick also suggest rechecking my timing on the #1 (or #4) cylinder.

This problem actually started occurring last Fall, the squeal when hot. I thought it was clutch related, which led me to pull the motor, replacing those components, bearings, gaskets,etc. (Clutch spigot bushing did fall out, so that was a problem) But now after all that, the same squeal is there and now worse.

Having this alternator conversion and associated wiring change is one more thing to think about when checking the wire diagram,etc.

I appreciate everyones comments, I'll get to the bottom of this one way or another!

I agree with pulley alignment. This can set up a hell of a racket and only be out a fraction. Try spraying belt dressing on it and see if the sound lessens. If it does, definitely pulley alignment.

A very large electrical load will make the alternator much more difficult to turn. Could there be a short or a failing component drawing a lot of current?

Al;

The only other thing i can think of is the actual shape of the V belt,are the belts that you use sitting right down in the V grooves on the pulley's or could it be that there are different width's of V belts?.Perhaps yours are wider than the pulley grooves? or narrower?
Perhaps someone who knows V belt spec's will chime in here.
BTW what belts are you using?

Mark

Guys:
I'm out of town this evening, so I'm left just thinking about how to fix this...

The new belt is a Gates 7375, which matched the length of the original belt, but it does have a higher profile, but several mm's. I meant to take a picture of the two the other night. I had no luck matching the original belt (now broken) at Autozone or Advance and found that number on a thread here. I'm out of town tonight, but will take a profile picture of both tomorrow. But, the noise was occurring with both belts.

With no belt, the alternator does turn smoothly and freely.

I'll take some pictures and a video of the belt alignment tomorrow night and see what you think.

That's after I install a new hot water heater....the wife called me tonight and it is leaking...make all this stop - please!

Ok, I put the belt on, correct tentsion. Removed the two brown power leads from the starter. The car is quiet as a mouse.

So, something is wrong in those power leads to the alternator or internal to the alternator? I have 12 volts to the alternator positive post.

Suggestions?

Al,

Congrats on the progress. As we discussed on the phone, it appears there's a major fault in the electrical system putting a huge load on the alternator, which apparently is what was causing your noise. Suggest you download the wiring diagram from Advanced Autowire, load it onto a flash drive and take it to Kinko's or similar and have it blown up and laminated. Then trade the two errant wires to try to determine where there's a dead short or major current draw. I'm guessing you're going to find more than one fault...

Dick

I need to take my typing fingers in for repair. Of course I meant "trace," not "trade." Sorry. You said that the noise disappeared when you removed two brown wires from the power supply, so it's those two wires I'd suggest you trace for a possible dead short or other problem...

Dick

Dick & Folks:
Dick, thanks, "trace" makes sense, thanks!

Ok, I found one errant wire that doesn't go anywhere in my bundle beside the underhood fuse panel. This small diameter, brown wire comes out of the bundle coming from the interior.

[URL=http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2577534400062237293YODeEU][/URL]

In that same bundle from the interior, there is another same diameter brown wire that goes to a fuse holder (one of three). That other end of the fuse holder terminates in this five brown wire bundle that is capped.

[URL=http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2948645870062237293NFaadv][/URL]

I can't quite make out on the wirign diagram some of these items, but suspect that errant small diameter brown wire is supposed to also terminate in that capped bundle? I cannot find any other broken brown wire in the large bundle that goes past the four-fuse holder.

Can someone trace their two, small brown wires or read that diagram better?

Al,

I can't help you with the trace, but do note that, on our cars, by design all solid brown wires are intended to be "hot" all the time, as they originate at the terminal on the starter motor where the battery cable connects...

Dick

Folks:
I am completely stumped as to where this brown wire should attach in the harness.

I am using this schematic, from Advance Auto Wire, Page 33 "Late Market MGB from Haynes" as it shows the five brown wire bundle in the picture above, that is capped together with a factory wire cap. The bundle is shown in my picture right under the "Starter Relay" label. At the six o'clock position, two browns run off and into a connector of some kind, one of those leads goes to the headlight switch, which runs through an inline fuse holder, than to the five-wire bundle. The other to the bottom fuse panel location. Both seem to be in the right spots.

http://www.advanceautowire.com/

A close-up of this bundle:
[URL=http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2499387300062237293jLSuln][/URL]

The mystery wire comes out of the bundle coming from the interior of the car. There is one other brown wire in that bundle, and it runs to the proper location (listed earlier).

Since, my wire melt did burn through one of the brown wires in that five-wire bundle, hazard fuse holder, I thought it would be tied in with that. But, when I put the mystery wire on that wire, it got warm fast, so that is not it.

It must tie into another spot on the harness but for the life of me, I can't figure out where.

I traced all the brown wires and per the schematic, each runs to their respective locations either on the bundle, starter or relays.

My only thought is does this brown wire run to the 3rd brown wire coming off the starter, that runs to that five-wire bundle? I did burn through that in my wire episode and remade that lead.

I don't want to aimlessly connect a brown wire again, so I appreciate any feedback.

Another challenge to this is all the electrical components worked with this loose wire (headlights, horn, flashers, turn signals, high beams)

Look for wire(s) that get hot.

Al, I think the stray brown wire is part of the hazard flasher circuit. It should connect to a line fuse in the engine bay which then connects to that 5 wire bundle. AFAIK the only brown wires into the cockpit are headlight and hazard.

but when I connect that to the lead in the right side of this picture, coming off the 5 wire bundle, it sparked a bit and immediately got warm.

Al,

That then may be the clue to your problem. Suggest you trace that brown lead on the right side of your photo...

Dick

Had an alternator overcharging once. Turned out to be a bad engine - to - chassis ground.

Al,

Just put a voltmeter across the battery terminals and note the voltage with the engine at about 2,000 rpm. Should be around 14.5 volts. If you get this voltage and the red dash light is not glowing, your alternator is probably OK. Are you able to identify one brown wire such that, if you disconnect it, the alternator noise goes away? If so, wherever that brown wire leads is likely the source of your problem...

Dick

I uploaded a new video here, perhaps summarizing steps and actions to this point. (video was too large for my webshots, so it is on my Youtube page, never tried this before, hopefully the video uploads)

http://youtu.be/SZqyWWCx0vg

No change in the squeal noise. With the two brown leads to the alternator take OFF, I start the car and it starts fine with all electrical items working properly and the alternator is quiet, no squeals.

I attached the two brown leads from the starter, the squeal is immediate and only after a few seconds, the alternator and pulley get warm. The brown wire on the Saturn plug runs all the way into the dash, to the Inertia Switch to the left of the steering wheel. Or at least I believe that is the Interia Switch, which per the schematic, is only supposed to have three white leads (it also has them). Here's a shot of the switch and schematic:

[URL=http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2813895150062237293eekatI][/URL]

[URL=http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2237637300062237293TUGeaT][/URL]

[URL=http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2356482940062237293MuxJQw][/URL]

The wiring instructions for the alternator conversion, say to take the brown wire from the Saturn plug and run it to the brown wire w/yellow stripe. I see that wire in my harness, but is capped off and the PO did not use this for some reason. It looks like so for some reason, he bypassed that brown/yellow wire and ran it directly to the Interia switch. Is there any reason why I shouldn't attach the Saturn plug lead to the proper brown/yellow stripe wire. vs running directly to the interia switch? I have no idea why it was done this way. Why would he run that alternator wire to this location? Is this the source of my problem?


My PO bought the alternator conversion from MGCcars.com and used these instructions to wire:
http://www.mgccars.com/instructions-for-cs130-inst.html

Is not using this capped, brown/yellow stripe wire the cause of my issues?

Sounds like the loose brown wire was the power feed to the headlight switch. You mentioned this had been bypassed by the PO when a relay was installed. It's possible it has overheated and melted some insulation in the bundle at some point and may be causing a short. Use your ohm meter and see if that wire is be grounded. Use the volt meter setting to see if the wire has 12v. Either way it seems you're going to have to trace the length of the wire to find out what's going on.

Here's what bothers me about this. From what I have read in this thread, this noise came on fairly suddenly. I, for one, would like to SEE the engine running and HEAR the noise. I just went back through the thread, and THAT particular bit is missing. I think it would be helpful.

BTW, what part of MD are you located? Just curious, as it is my home state.

I'm from Hagerstown.

The problem actually started last summer. We bought the car in June, and by August I was getting some occasional squeals. I thought it was clutch related, but no realize it was the alternator. That led me to pull the motor and do new clutch/pp, crank and rod bearings, etc.

UPDATE:
I moved the Saturn plug wire to the proper brown/yellow stripe wire and disconnected the blue wire that was running straight to the Inertia Switch. Started the car and the alternator squeal is gone. BUT, now the battery is not charging. Running, revving the motor to 2,000 rpm's, I only get a little over 12 volts at the battery. I put the lights on, they are bright enough, but the horn is weak. Voltage slowly dropped to 11.4 volts.

I guess I need to trace those new brown wire leads? But they are giving steady volts at the starter and alternator posts.

Is there any chance when I fried the wire leads, that I damaged the battery? It is a fairly new battery (2010), installed by the PO.

Al,

Wiring damage likely. Battery damage unlikely.

Trace those puppies...

Dick

Brown with yellow stripe is ignition warning light.

You might want to take the car to a professional before something bad happens.

There is no Brit repair shop anywhere near my small town, so I'm all in.

Roger Tanner send me a checklist to go thru.

My "Ignition" light definitely does not work and Rogers says it must to excite the alternator to charge.

For some reason, my PO skipped over this part of the circuit when installing the alternator.

Can this "Ignition" warning lamp go bad? If so, should I order and have a replacement necessary?

I'm still unclear as to what the "Inertia Switch" (next in that circuit) does, anyone have a clue?

Hi Al,
Just read your entire post and seen video.
I am more familiar with air brakes and the last few years at work we took on
Delco starters and Alternators for over road trucks.
Having converted air brake trucks to pull trailers (Air or hydraulics)
is a pain.Biggest problem is installation and running hoses. Biggest problem
is crossing lines and putting them on the right connection. Same with electric wiring.
excluding riping all wires out and starting new you physically have to follow each wire
to its destination. That you know. and the color changing wiring from original to a different color spells trouble right off
If that alternator conversion is universal- more problems.That Saturn plug
would be my first thing to figure out. There are diodes and triodes in there.
May be shorted out. but what each wire on the plug needs to connect to will
clear some things up.
Since the PO cut wires you have to assume he took shortcuts just to get it sold
so searching each wire out and double checking for frays is what needs to be done.
If it is practical replace the off colored wire with the original brown
Research how an alternator works and what the Diodes do and you will have a good
grip on whats happing. Havent sold diodes in 30 years but people use to rebuild there own startes and alternators.
Joe

Good points Joe, thanks!

I can't locate that "Ignition" dash panel switch/component at Moss. Is there another source?

I also need to get some of the factory color wiring - is there a good source for those colors? To this point, I've had to use standard wire colors that I have, but would rather retain the factory colors of course.

somebody needs to spring kimberly out of the pokey to solve this problem.

Yes inertia switch shuts the fuel pump off in case of an accident.

Take out and test the bulb in the Ignition idiot lamp in the dash. If that is burned out then you will not charge.
Test that loose brown wire is it hot at all times? I suspect it is not but should be. The fact that it got warm when you hooked it tot he other browns makes me think it is hooked to ground somewhere.
The saturn alternator should have three wires, and putting them straight in your car *may* entail running three wires to where they belong outside the harness to see if you can get the system to function. if so then you *know* the harness has been messed with to the degree that you cannot trust the color codes. I suspect that you are grounding the alternator not "energizing the field" as you friend put it.

Sorry you are in MD not MA I would enjoy figuring this one out.
Battery is fine every volt you are getting now is from the battery. the car would not start if the battery was bad because the alternator sure as shooting isn't doing anything good.

I must admit your descriptions have me scratching my head. I think I know what you are saying then it all gets lost in the spaghetti, but the charging system is pretty basic.

The dash light only goes on if the Alternator gives ground to the 12v+ coming up to the lamp. If the alternator is giving 12v+ the light is out. If the bulb is blown that line is an open circuit which should be 12v on both sides of the bulb. From the alternator this should be the small brown wire to the brown yellow that goes to the dash lamp. On your Saturn plug it is the MIDDLE brown wire not the one next to the red wire.

The brown wires from the starter (big and small) and the red wire from the Saturn Plug all connect to the battery terminal on the Saturn alternator.

The one thing missing from all you posts is a pic of how you have the back of the alternator hooked up.

The show must go on... Break a leg!

Guys: Joe just send me an email saying that the underhood dash light you can see in my video must have been a substitute for the dash light. It used to light when the car was started and stayed on, which I now assume "excited" the alternator to charge. I assumed it was installed as a convenience item. Joe suggests it was used to replace the "Ignition" light on the dash. I put that wire to the bulb on the brown/yellow stripe wire run from the alternator and now it is NOT lit and the battery is not charging.

If anyone has a tip on how that "Ignition" lamp is removed for investigation, definitely pass that along. I only had a few minutes Sunday evening to try and get it out of the dash, to no avail. I was trying to pop it out from the front of the dash. Getting my hand up into the recess will take some doing, if that is the only way it is done. I hope it as simple as a blown bulb in the dash, but that might be a bit too easy...

Here is what the back of my alternator and Saturn plug looks like. The red wire goes to the positive post on the battery and the brown now goes to the brown/yellow stripe wire to the non-working dash lamp.

You are gonna have to get the bulb from behind. Easy to pop out the Speedo and get it from there. Twist it about 1/8 turn clockwise, and it pulls right out. (Disconnect the cable first.)

ggerding replied on how to pull the bulb but somehow his post is missing, not sure why, but many thanks.

I checked the "Ignition" light on the dash and it indeed does have a bulb.

I checked continuity on that wire, it had continuity.

The bulb looked ok, but does not light with the key on. The hazard bulb is the same type bulb and I know it works, I swapped bulbs and the ignition bulb works in the hazard spot, but not vice versus.

Than, I push down on the ignition bulb and it lit. I can fiddle with it to get it to stay lit. But, when I start the car, the alternator starts squealing (and that bulb goes out). I shut it down before I got a chance to check the volts at the battery, but I suspect it was charging, but now overloading the alternator again. No bulb light, motor running, no squeal and still no charge.

My multimeter says I'm getting 11.XX volts at key on at that light socket, which seems too much?

Reading the schematic, I still don't know what that symbol directly above the word "alternator" means:



I feel like I'm closer, but still no prize. If anyone can suggest a next step, or verify the info I learned above, that would be great.

If you will check the legend (bottom right of the drawing) it shows this as a single pin in a multi-pin connector. The other pins for that multi-pin connector are elsewhere on the drawing.

You have a 12VDC electrical system; roughly 11.XX volts at the light socket is fine.

If you run the engine with the alternator electrical connector disconnected, does it still squeal? Just trying to ensure the alternator isn't dead shorted.

Al,
I may have mis-read, thought you had solved the ign warning lamp issue.

I was thinking just run the car with all the connectors removed from the alternator to see if the squeal is still there. Trying to figure out if you have a dead-short and the alternator is over-currenting or if its a mechanical problem with the alternator or its mount.

Al,
White is ground in everything else. When you get the warning light working ,
I bet you created a short. Find out if the white is hot coming out of Alt.
If it is not hot then its a ground.That alt. might have been for a car that needed to be grounded. It is an universal fit. Alternators are grounded by mounts and some have Isolators on the mounting brackets and need to be grounded to the block by a wire.
Maybe wrong on that,It's been awhile. The socket for that loose bulb needs to be replaced. Have you put a test light to the case of the alternator.It may check
out on the bench, but on vehicle is a different story.
If i an wrong you get a MG tobacco pouch. Oh!!!! you already got one.
Just covering my bases.
Joe

Ok, I ran the alternator wire several ways, but no success.

I pulled the bulb from the IGNITION lamp mount and ran the lamp in line under the hood. It does not light the bulb in this manner.

When I use the blue wire the PO installed, with the lamp in that run, the bulb lights the alternator charges the battery, but the alternator starts squealing

When I put it all back to factory, the car runs fine, but no charge.

I can get that bulb to stay lit, but when it is, the alternator starts squealing, but sure enough, 13.4 volts at the battery.

I checked continuity from the white wire, coming out from the twin lead to the bulb socket, and it has continuity to its plug into the inertia switch.

How can I check if that alternator case has a short using my multimeter?

If I get a new Saturn plug, with that white ground wire, any harm in grounding the alternator to the motor?

Al,
I was using how I solved airbrake problems. Both work on relays .
The blue wire is your key along with the dash light. If Alt. is mounted metal to metal
and also the bracket it should be grounded. Ask the store where you bought it.
Did the Alt come with a pulley? some how i missed the two videos on page 1.
That Alt.should not bind, It is turning on a bearing. Come to think about it are you smelling a faint electric order.
You still have a electrical problem. I seen bearing on a trailers being pulled by kenworths-ect. get so hot they melted too the axle and a few tire fires were started that way
I am stretching my knowledge and any thing else would be guess work.
When i had a complicated problem with air brakes i drew out the air flow to the valves
to keep focased .
Joe

Al,
NO idea if this helps.

The original alternators required a external power source to "excite" the field coils in the alternator. This was accomplished by power from the battery, thru the warning light to the alternator. If the bulb blew or the circuit failed, the alternator would not charge. Most alternators available now have this excite source internally.

If you put the bulb in-line under the hood, you would need to bridge or by-pass the connection at the dash lamp so you get battery power to the bulb under the hood. Do not ground the bulb circuit at any point, its not intended to work that way.

From what your describing it sounds like you only get the squeal when the alternator is charging?

Clay, you nailed it. The bulb connection with the brown/yellow stripe wire and the white lead to the inertia switch do appear to be bridged, as both are together on the socket? Althbough I'm not certain that I understand your suggestion. Pls fill me in as I am stumped as to do next. Short of putting back on a Lucas alternator

I wish that I had a stock alternator to try. I hate to buy yet another and find the same problem.

I've traced all the wires to the alternator and dash light, all have continuity and the correct voltage.

What bothers me is even when I skip the factory light and wires, using the wire ran by the previous owner, I get the same overload on the alternator.

I have checked the wire TO the intertia switch, but not beyond.

I will experiment using the stock wire, and dash light and pull one or the other lead to see if that changes the status. I don't know what this will accomplish, but that is the only circuit I haven't traced.

On this diagram, it looks like the white wire runs to the fuel pump and transmission interlocks (my car has no OD, safe to assume that I also don't have a transmission interlock switch?)

[URL=http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2008065640062237293kUnhwv][/URL]

(my car has no OD, safe to assume that I also don't have a transmission interlock switch?)

Correctamundo...

Dick

http://www.mgccars.com/instructions-for-cs130-inst.html

Usually a squeal occurs from too much demand on the alternator. Make sure the battery is fully charged, no dead cells etc. I have attached wiring instructions for the CS130 Saturn Alternator. I am curious to know what the problem is here when you find out.

Well, using the factory ignition wire, when I pull the white wire lead from the light to the intertia switch, the fuel pump stops and the car dies. I had continuity on that wire, so that makes sense.

The alt squeals whether the factory wire or the owner-ran wire is used as long as there is a light in the run. No light, either way, no squeal. The battery is charged with the light and squeal. I have a steady 12 volts (or battery level) at the alt post and thru the plug wire.

Maybe I should swap out that alternator, I can't think of anything else to check. It checked fine, but any chance mounted changes something? I'd hate to think I've been chasing my tail for a week because the alternator is bad?

Amazingly, my battery must be real good as with all the test starts and short runs, volts are still 11.80....

Weird, a couple of times now, folks have responded but their reply doesn't make it to this thread. Member emadek just wrote:

emadak wrote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.mgccars.com/instructions-for-cs130-inst.html

Usually a squeal occurs from too much demand on the alternator. Make sure the battery is fully charged, no dead cells etc. I have attached wiring instructions for the CS130 Saturn Alternator. I am curious to know what the problem is here when you find out.


Those instructions were included with the receipt from the Mgccars.com and the altnernator conversion kit. I emailed that website, but they didn't respond.

My battery was at 12.4X volts and has now dropped a bit. Responses here say it is fine (and still holding steady as my previous post indicated).

What provides the demand on the alternator?

Sometimes mine will squeal when the Lights are on, the wipers,radio and blower motor are operating along with the radiator fan. Usually during a rainstorm at a stop. But usually if I let the revs down or slowly increase the revs the alternator will catch up and proceed as normal. Most of the time, the cause of a bad alternator is it's inability to keep up a battery that is in bad condition. It works overtime to charge, heats up and self destructs. If a battery is fully charged it should hold 12 plus volts over night or for a few days. Bad cells can cause a pull on the alternator as well. By the way did I say I don't like electrics. Sorry! I have no answers here. However there was a customer who was working on a diode in line to prevent the alternator from coming on too quickly. He has not gotten back to me. Any electricians out there that can help?

***** I didn't make it to the end of this thread before I wrote this******

I was going to suggest pulling the connector on the alternator to see if the noise goes away.



Is the pulley on the Saturn alternator the same width as the crank and water-pump pulleys? Maybe that belt doesn't fit all three pulleys properly.

Turn on the headlights and step on the brake.
That will put a slightly greater load on the alternator and if that pulley is the source of the squeal it will be louder

The pulley alignment is fine. With the belt on but power disconnected to the alternator, it is quuite to ideal and even drive. It's definitely nothing to do with the belt or pulley.

The socket for that "Ignition" bulb is a problem. I have to wiggle the bulb around (it is twist lock bulb and spring tensioned) to get it stay on with the key in the "On" position. But, as soon as that bulb lights, the squeal starts. If I push up on the white wire on that bulb socket, the light comes on (while car is running) and the alternator starts screaming.

I'd love to replace that bulb socket, but no one seems to have one. Is there a MGB salvage place that might? Even if I get this alternator to charge, that bulb has to be firmly in place for it to continue to work.

Well, let see, hooking up lights starts all the problems and they need to be functional.
I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. Was the regulator change to match
the alternator? I am not sure if that is required..I assume that you are mot using the
two wires that are tied up in the cs130 conversion instructions.
I know when we tested Alternators where I use to work, the machine to check it
could put a load on it . Not just creating a current but to see if it functions under a
load.
The other thing is what is the draw when squealing?
Is a wire hooked on the wrong side of a relay to make the circut work back wards. Cause ti seems to be working backwards. Off when it supposed to be on.
Joe

I'm telling you...

Disconnect the wires from the alternator...

Run new wire to the battery as appropriate both 12- and 12+
Make sure it is grounded all the way back,
the primary wire to the batt 12v+ terminal
the idiot lamp wire all the way to ground, through a momentary switch

Start the car.
Press the momentary switch, does the squeal come/go?
No?

wiring issue in the harness somewhere.

Yes?

Alternator.

"Do what he say! Do what he say!" ;) :D :devil:

Dick

I'm just not sure at this point. It certainly sounds like the alternator is over-currenting. It seems like Al has tested EVERYTHING multiple times.

Seems like he needs to put an amp meter in-series with the positive output of the alternator and measure the current. Probably needs an amp-meter that will handle the full output of the alternator. I think he will find a very high current output when the alternator is squealing.

Al, another option might be to disconnect all unnecessary connections at the fuse block in an effort to isolate what is drawing the current.

You can tell from Al’s first post in the video link that the alternator is heavily loading the engine because the water-pump pulling slows considerably. It’s interesting that the squeal is sort of rhythmic, on about a 1 second interval, maybe some internal protection in the alternator. From the video the belt looks lined up in the pulleys.

Al, what did you eventually do with unterminated brown wire you found in the loom? You had some concerns about where this should go. Often to increase capacity, the loom will include multiple wires with the same endpoints to increase current capacity rather than using a single larger wire.

Al, can you provide a photo of the back of the alternator all wired up?

One other thought, are your horn(s) working? How about your fans? Are you sure your starter is disengaging? (I’m just thinking of heavy loads)

Wish I could see this in person. This poor guy needs a beer (or two).

I need you to clarify:
"run new wires to the battery as appropriate both 12- and 12+"
Do you mean run wires directly from the battery to the alternator?
(I have a new set running from the starter to the battery.)

"make sure it is grounded all the way back"

I truly don't know exactly what you mean by that.

Please stick with me and clarify those steps just a bit!


Tonight, I did put an additional ground on the car (motor mount to frame) and exchanged the alternator, same problem.

The squeal comes as I press on the "Ingnition" lamp, and charges. Release the lamp, squeal stops and so does charging.

If you can fill this dunce in a little more, I'd love to try those steps.

I definitely will need a new lamp mount for that "ignition" lamp as it will not hold the bulb properly to light the bulb, as soon as it is jostled just the slightest bit, it goes out. Moss, Victoria British and The Roadster Factory say they do not carry this part. Is there a salvage yard that had Brit parts where I could order a replacement?

Thanks Clay J., more things to think about and my responses below.

Yes.

Run a wire from the battery terminal on the alternator to the battery.
Disconnect the harness wires.
Ground the alternator case.

You can use a set of jumper cables to do this if they are long enough.

The telltale will be that damned brown to brown yellow.

Sometimes my methods are outside "the book" but your problem is a real temple scratcher.
Isolate the offending system, test it in situ, proceed with reconnections one wire at a time til you find the offending item.

Sorry you are 500 miles away.

Hey, all of your long-distance help is most definitely appreciated.

Ah, now I got it. I have plenty of heavy wire that I can wire the alternator directly from the battery, that makes sense.

I should also as you suggested on the previous post, start taking loads off the charging system and see what effect that has. First up would be to unplug the power/ground to the lights/horn relays the PO installed.

Wife's 50th surprise birthday is this afternoon, 90 of our friends will be here, so diagnostic work will have to wait until Sunday.

I'll report back!

Ok, 4/22 Update:

I first started the car with all the factory wiring (brown/yellow wire & factory dash light) in place. I started disconnecting loads from the electrical system from the fuse box and relays. One at a time, than tested with dash light. The squeal returns every time I twist the bulb into making contact in the socket.

Next, I pulled the two brown wires from the stater to the alternator and ran a separate external wire from the positive battery post to the alternator and grounded the alt case to the motor (I guess it was already grounded to the motor by the mount bolts). Same result, when I enable the dash ignition lamp, the squeal returns.


I did not attempt another test using the new wire and underhood lamp ran by the PO. That skips the underhood dash light in the system. I'll try that next if only to rule out that factory brown/yellow stripe ignition wire.

I'm not exactly sure what all of the above tells me.

I do eventually have to secure a new dash bulb socket as this one only works if I twist and hold the bulb in the socket. This is great for testing, as I can enable the bulb for only a short period while the motor is running to see if the squeal returns. Hopefully this doesn't beat up my new alternator too much...

Is there a boneyard on the East Coast anywhere where I could grab one of these bulbs? I'm going thru Baltimore and into NJ for the first few days of the week and could stop at a likely place. Without replacing that bulb socket, I'm relegated to using the underhood light installed by the PO (when I eventually resolve this) but I'd rather have the factory dash light.

Would going back to a factory Lucas alternator make any sense at this point? At $130, I'd probably pay double that now to get rid of this issue.....But, I don't know that is the issue. My Uncle swears he can't understand how a car with only one fan belt, and not a serpentine belt CAN'T be overcharging with a 96 amp alternator. I tell him a number of folks are successfully running this alternator but my non-charging car doesn't give me much credibility with him...

From Moss:
http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=29060#top

Al ,
I do not want to be an egghed but that light seems to be your problem.
By pass that light, but use same wiring. To it and to what ever it goes.
Like a bridge. It has to be a dead short there. or it is not being grounded right.
Can you replace the pig tail in side the socket. is the socket grounded?
Maybe wrong but been wrong before.
That problem is so simple that it is complacted. The other thing comes to mind
does the wiring continue to antoher switch? Is ther a bare spot past or before the light sockect it self. Can only be a friction of an inch before the socket it self..
As an egg head it hast to be a short in the hot lead going to the bulb.
A lose conection- light bulb- will build up resistant- extra charging .
If i am wrong give responece from others. i have a thick skin.
Joe

The bulb just doesn't fit surely into that socket, it is plastic inside and doesn't twist fit tightly enough to hold the bulb against the spring loaded white wire, which runs to the "Inertia Switch" and completes that circuit. I guess the Interia switch is the ground for the light. If I wire the alternator directly to the fuel pump, the alt doesn't charge the battery.

I'll look for an generic bulb socket at Autozone, it just has to connect the brown/yellow stripe wire with the white wire to the Interia switch.

I read this entire thread and had trouble finding my way through the weeds.
The GM Alternator you are using will be internally regulated.

Early in the thread you have pics of your wiring diagram. It's the same one I have so I know what you are looking at.

I believe it was SpikeMichael who pointed out that the Alternator warning lamp is powered from the ignition switch by the same white wire that powers the fuel pump. Of course power passes through the inertia switch on its way to the pump but that's a different subject.

The other side of the Warning light is then connected to the Alternator Indicator terminal via the Brown/Yellow wire. That alternator terminal acts as ground for the Warning light IF battery voltage is higher than alternator output voltage.
GM refers to that terminal as #1. On our MG diagram it's referred to as "Ind"

GM refers to the other terminal as #2. On our MG diagram it's referred to as "+" and it's one of the solid brown wires that connects the alternator to the starter terminal.

The third wire connects the alternator output to the battery+ terminal.
On the MG that's the other solid brown wire that runs to the starter terminal and on the MG diagram it's referred to as "Batt".

It takes a lot of words to describe it but it's just 3 simple connections.

I know you are having problems with the dash mounted warning lamp socket but you can accomplish the same thing with a stand-alone lamp powered from the battery and connected to the #1 alternator terminal.

When you start the car and the alternator output exceeds battery voltage, terminal #1 stops acting as a ground for the warning light so the light goes out.

By color:
The Brown/yellow wire connects to the #1 terminal on the alternator.
One solid Brown wire from the starter terminal connects to the #2 terminal
The remaining solid Brown wire from the starter terminal connects to the 'Batt' or '+' terminal on the alternator.

If you have those three connections right then the alternator will have output.
We know it does as evidenced by the slipping squealing belt that eventually will burn out and break.

The original Lucas alternator is like 45 amps and a single belt/pulley can drive that successfully. I was told by a friend that a much higher output replacement alternator of say 100 amps would eat belts. A very high output would squeal all the time and probably snap the belt.

Just curious to know the output rating for your replacement.

The kit my PO installed, from MGCars.com says it was a 110 amp alternator.
This is the kit he installed:

http://www.mgccars.com/electrical-upgrades-for-you.html

The replacement alternator I have from Advance, for a 91-94 Saturn, the spec says 96 amps.
There is only one Battery connection on the GM alternator, so both of the brown wires from the starter are runnnig to that one post.
From Advance:
http://www.mgccars.com/electrical-upgrades-for-you.html
Alternator Case Type: Cast
Alternator Finish: Same as OEM
Amperage Rating: 96 amps
Fan Included: Yes
Fan Type: External Fan
Internal Regulator: Yes
Lester Number: 8215
Plug Type: PC_309
Pulley Diameter: 62 mm
Pulley Grooves: 5
Pulley Included: Yes
Pulley Type: Serpentine
Regulator Included: Yes
Regulator Plug Clocking: 0.125
Regulator Type: Internal Regulator
Voltage: 12 v

Advance Auto has a remanufactured Beck/Arnley Alternator for $114, any harm in trying that?
It is rated at 45 amps.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Remanufactured-Alternator---43-Amps-Beck-Arnley_18035544-P_11_R|GRPALTSAMS_____

I can just run that bulb socket the PO used, in right off the brown/yellow stripe wire, right?

Al,
LOTs of folks have used this alternator setup from MGC just as you have it. Some have reported minor belt squeal on occasion but nothing like you've got.

IF you decided to try a Lucus style replacment, I think you will need the harness plug.

I'm still thinking you have some sort of wiring issue. (just no idea what)

I feel sure the Lucus style will have a completely different type plug. You might be able to pick one up at a good parts house.

If the battery is fully charged the alternator should do very little charging. How deeply discharged is your battery to require high enough output from the alternator that the belt squeals? I suggest you fully charge your battery with a battery charger and see if it helps reduce the squealing. It sounds like you have more alternator than a single belt can handle at full charge rate.

I found this trouble shooting guide on line.
Note that the Dash lamp should light with ignition "on", then go out when engine starts. Probably redundant but worth stating.

This continues to cause me sleeplessness.

The light under the hood should be disconnected, period.

Make sure there is good continuity from the casing of the alternator to the 12v- terminal of the battery.

The two wires from the battery to the alternator (browns) should be OK.

The dash light runs from the 12v+ battery terminal to the IND terminal on the alternator.
replace this with a length of wire and a light bulb, NOT the DPO wired under hood light.

The battery should charge in this configuration and the light should be off.

Return and report.

Ok. I checked it a few times last summer. I don't think I ever saw anything over 12.44 volts or so?
I'll charge and see if it holds.
It was purchased last summer and has a full replacement warranty sticker (Walmart) on the case. I'll get them to check it as well.

My wife may shoot me if I continue to work on this issue every waking moment I'm home...

Here's the light the PO had used, he located it under the hood, tied into the brown/yellow-stripe ignition wire and a ground (to the multiple ground point on the wire harness strap, in front of the anti-run on valve)


When I wasn't sleeping last night, it came to me that all those bulb sockets on the dash are the same as the Ignition. is there any reason I can't swap the bulb mount from the hazard (or other) to use in the Ignition?

[URL=http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2474511040062237293HITnwR][/URL]

12.8 volts is fully charged. 11.8 is considered virtually dead. When you wiggle(connect) your bulb your alternator charges the almost dead battery at full capacity. Since the alternator has twice the specified output the belt squeals because it cannot cope with that high a load.

Battery is on the trickle charger now, I'll be back home tomorrow evening.

The light under the hood went from the alternator to GROUND??
NO! It should go to 12v+

By connecting it from the IND terminal to ground the system is feeding backwards. That light circuit should be balanced between what the battery has (12v) and what the alternator is putting out (12v) with equal voltage the light is off. If the battery is dead(ish) power flows from the IND to the battery and the light lights or flickers, with the alternator not working powwer flows from battery to alternator causing the light to light or flicker.

With that IND running to ground the Alternator goes into hysterics and will output at max regardless of the other connections or component condition. Run that under hood light (if you must) to a 12v+ source. it will stay out and the alternator will put out 14.4 volts and no squeal. If I am right send the brownies WITH WALNUTS and an IBC Root beer to me If I am wrong... well I'll scratch my head some more.

I mixing brownies this evening...

Ok: please clarify for me:

Light - has two leads. The light has always been constant lit any time the car was running (key on and when motor was started). to clarify, it did not go out when the car was started.

#1 Lead - to ground
#2 Lead - tied to the new wire that than runs to the Intertia switch & the alternator power out lead from the plug

I don't know what IND means? (

I think you are telling me to:
#1 Lead - wire to a 12 v source (constant or keyed?)
#2 Lead - leave connected to the Interia switch/Alt power out wire

I will try to swap bulb housings tonight, so I can use the factory brown/yellow stripe wire and the in-dash light.

Do you like nuts with your brownies? My new Lucas alternator is to be delivered on Wed, hopefully the plug also arrives on Wed/Thurs.

If anyone has or can snap a picture of what the factory alternator plug wiring looks like, that would be helpful and appreciated.

Al,
"IND" is short for indicator as in warning lamp on dash. Michael provides a good description, the IND output from the alternator should NEVER be grounded, it should be tied to the positive battery post. As he notes, grounding the IND output from the alternator, even with a bulb in between would cause the alternator to generate its full current capability.

Ok, but until I can repair the ign dash light socket, I have to use the new wire, which jumps over the non-functioning dash light.
If I have to wire in the light pigtail pictured above, I know one wire connects to the brown from the alt, but where does the other lead go?
If someone wants to call my cell to review, pls do so at 301-676-6004, it is frustrating either not completely undedrstanding these replies and I don't want to make another mistake

What Gary is saying is the only way that light gets grounded is thru the alternator. Not directly to ground as the PO had thought. Light comes on either when the rpms drop too low or the ignition switch is in the on position, motor not running. Or when the diode blows and the alternator quits working. Light goes out when the engine fires up.

Guys:
Dick M. called me today and patiently explained this way the light is grounded. Armed with this knowledge, I came home, and using the Saturn alternator, wired as described (one lead to the IND wire from the Alt, the other to a keyed-on 12 V source, a wire on the starter relay in this case.

Battery was charged to 13.01 volts

Started the car and got a tiny squeal, than the none and the battery is charging, registering 14.6 volts at the battery terminals. The light is on at key-on, but turns off at start-up, when the circuit is no longer grounded.

The car idles and seems to run fine. But, I get a little squeal on every start up. I had the belt somewhat loose, and added a touch more tension.

Is this something that might disappear with driving? (ran out of time for a test drive this evening)

Thanks for sticking with me on this, I'm sure you can tell I've never had to do this much electronic diagnosis to this point.

Thanks for the call and patience with me Mr. Moritz!

Oh, there is not really a way to swap those indicator dash lamp modules. The other wire which is in each module, is spring loaded and without cutting that short wire, there isn't a way to swap them between modules. So, I'll stick with the underhood lamp for now, at least for testing.

Al
This was a great thread... So much to learn here. Keep up the good work. Glad you figured it out. With a little help of course, from your friends here on the MG Experience. Here is a picture of the indicator housing. I believe it pushes out from behind the dash.

[quote="Riff Raff,2035718,2049343"]
Guys:
Dick M. called me today and patiently explained this way the light is grounded. Armed with this knowledge, I came home, and using the Saturn alternator, wired as described (one lead to the IND wire from the Alt, the other to a keyed-on 12 V source, a wire on the starter relay in this case.

Battery was charged to 13.01 volts

Started the car and got a tiny squeal, than the none and the battery is charging, registering 14.6 volts at the battery terminals. The light is on at key-on, but turns off at start-up, when the circuit is no longer grounded.

The car idles and seems to run fine. But, I get a little squeal on every start up. I had the belt somewhat loose, and added a touch more tension.

Is this something that might disappear with driving? (ran out of time for a test drive this evening)

Thanks for sticking with me on this, I'm sure you can tell I've never had to do this much electronic diagnosis to this point.

Thanks for the call and patience with me Mr. Moritz!


Al,

Hallelujah! And good for you for persevering. You're 99 percent there. I'm guessing the remaining squeal is simply fan belt, and easy enough to check. Make sure belt is tight enough, but not too tight. Spray the belt with some CRC or WD-40 or similar and see if the noise goes away, at least temporarily. If it does, and comes back soon, then the belt is making the noise. The problem may be a glazed belt from all you've put it through, or it could possibly be that the pulley on your alternator is not the right shape. Give this a try and see if it yields any useful info...

Dick

[color=#FF0066]CONGRADULATIONS!![/color]! :)-D

Sounds like your on the way!

Is the belt cross-cut on the V side? If not, you might look for a belt that is cross-cut rather than smooth, they seem to grip a little better, especially on a smaller diameter pulley.

Another option might be to look for a slightly larger diameter pulley. This would give the belt more area to grip. The alternator would spin a little slower but I doubt that would hurt anything. Might be able source one from a local alternator/starter repair shop.

Best of luck, keep us posted!

i'm glad we're nearing the end. this thread is making my back hurt.

It is a cross-cut belt. Good tip on the pulley, if it continues, I'll give that a shot.
Car is all buttoned up for a test ride tomorrow. I got the aluminum side plate back on with gaskets intact. The wires are just ziptied out of the way for now. If all goes well, I'll redo those underhood bundles with new tape and tidy it all up.
Wife's 50th birthday is tomorrow, do I dare take her in the car for a birthday dinner drive (short...)?

NEVER take your spouse on a shake-down ride, unless she's following in the tow vehicle!

Don't ask how I know this 8-)

Wel Al it was nice talking to you!
Oh wait you are NOT taking her on the shake-down.

After our con fab I do believe you have a handle on it.

I believe the seat belt light in the center console are the same design as the alt lamp in the dash.

Would have to go look and it is cold and raining so ... no.

Yes it is, thanks! Will have to investigate that.

Good to here wiring is done and all is well with the new Alternator.

Definitely carry a spare V-belt with you.
As long as you have one, you won't need it.:)

I do have a spare, good advice.

Short test ride today. I sprayed a little belt dressing on the pulley and not a peep. Car ran well, and no more side cover oil leak either. Neighbors are going to dinner with us, so I may tempt fate and take the B as I have a sag wagon....Think good things for me!

Lucas alternator showed up today, it is a three-prong, but at this point, I'll just keep it on the shelf and see what happens.

Took that test drive last night. The car ran quiet until I turned on the lights, than some other electrical items (fans, heater fan & headlights). I was getting quite a bit of belt squeal under load. I came home and tightened the belt, which almost eliminated the squeal. I still have a little off idle at times, when all the electrical items are on. My Uncle stopped by and he thinks my belt is riding too high in the pulleys. That NAPA belt is about 1/8" taller than the original belt I had (of unknown origin). So, I pulled the belt and will take it to NAPA today hopefully to locate one of a shorter profile. Getting a larger diameter pulley, as someone mentioned will also be investigated. But, no further electrical related issues.

When using a high output alternator, 85 amps or higher, (maybe even 65 amps)
the permanent fix is to use multi-ribbed pulleys.
No squeal, even when charging a low battery after a jump start (who ever has a low battery :).


Take at look at the Supercharger install instructions, page 14, illustration #45.
http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/products/instructions/150-060_053-312_INST.pdf

Those pulleys would work great.
Especially when you have to replace the OEM crank pulley/harmonic balancer due to rubber rot.


P.S. Careful with tightening the V belt too much to eliminate squeal.
The water pump won't last long.

Those are trick.

I stopped by a truck supply place this morning and they ordered a replacement Dayco belt that came on the car and worked fine. It will be here tomorrow. I'll take that step and see what happens.

I'm also going to replace my two inline fuse holders (Hazard/Run-on switch) as they are pretty beat. Hopefully than redo the wire harness into neatly taped bundles. Of course it's supposed to rain all weekend here, so I'll have plenty of down time.

Mosquote=glbishop,2035718,2050920]
When using a high output alternator, 85 amps or higher, (maybe even 65 amps)
the permanent fix is to use multi-ribbed pulleys.
No squeal, even when charging a low battery after a jump start (who ever has a low battery :).


Take at look at the Supercharger install instructions, page 14, illustration #45.
http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/products/instructions/150-060_053-312_INST.pdf

Those pulleys would work great.
Especially when you have to replace the OEM crank pulley/harmonic balancer due to rubber rot.


P.S. Careful with tightening the V belt too much to eliminate squeal.
The water pump won't last long.
[/quote]

New belt is on, a Dayco "Top Cog" #15375 (11A0950) and that seems to have made all the difference in the world. With the tension on the belt at the right level, no squealing at all. The new belt rides down in the pulley's. With all the electric running, fans on, hazards lamps, high beams, no a squeak. I'll do a test ride on Sunday, after the rain ends.