MG Midget Forum
Gearbox acting wierd!
Posted by Bingocaller
Bingocaller
Mark Bergstrøm
Copenhagen, Vesterbro, Denmark
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Topic Creator (OP)
Mar 31, 2015 11:34 AM
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So today I had the car on the lift to change all fluids
Coolant - works
Diff - works
Engine - Hmm - killed an oil filter gasket (see other tread) - but that can be fixed
Gearbox - Not so much
On the way op to the garage is seems funny (cold and rainy here) - its it like I can feel something rotating in the clutch peddle when it is pressed down. Drove the car to the workshop - but drove fine and got fine into gear (just the odd feeling in the clutch peddle - it has done this before but with no concern) .
So I changed the oil (20w50 Castrol classic) - AND added an additive to improve gearbox called "Manual Gearbox & Differential Treatment" - came recommended from one of the DK guys here.
Now the car will not get info first - just grinds the gear - and the rest of the gear you really have to pull the stick to get it inline. Had to drive the car in 2 etc. all the way home. If engine is stopped no problem in all gears - slides just right in when I press the clutch.
Any good ideas? Should I go back to only 20W50 in the box? Or is the clutch done? Or???
Thanks!
1969 1275
69 Midget
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-31 11:35 AM by Bingocaller.
Coolant - works
Diff - works
Engine - Hmm - killed an oil filter gasket (see other tread) - but that can be fixed
Gearbox - Not so much
On the way op to the garage is seems funny (cold and rainy here) - its it like I can feel something rotating in the clutch peddle when it is pressed down. Drove the car to the workshop - but drove fine and got fine into gear (just the odd feeling in the clutch peddle - it has done this before but with no concern) .
So I changed the oil (20w50 Castrol classic) - AND added an additive to improve gearbox called "Manual Gearbox & Differential Treatment" - came recommended from one of the DK guys here.
Now the car will not get info first - just grinds the gear - and the rest of the gear you really have to pull the stick to get it inline. Had to drive the car in 2 etc. all the way home. If engine is stopped no problem in all gears - slides just right in when I press the clutch.
Any good ideas? Should I go back to only 20W50 in the box? Or is the clutch done? Or???
Thanks!
1969 1275
69 Midget
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-31 11:35 AM by Bingocaller.
easydiver
Mike Adams
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Mar 31, 2015 12:15 PM
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AN5L8016
Mark Haynes
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Mar 31, 2015 01:12 PM
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woodstock1
jim jensen
cleveland, USA
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Mar 31, 2015 07:16 PM
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Billm
Bill Masquelier
Santee, CA, USA
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1960 MG MGA 1600
1965 MG Midget MkII 1966 Austin-Healey Sprite "Sprite" 1966 Austin-Healey Sprite "Sprite" |
Mar 31, 2015 08:43 PM
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Sprite1956
Roger Parry-Jones
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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Mar 31, 2015 11:23 PM
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It's unlikely to be the oil. However, you could run automatic transmission oil (about 10 weight?) in the gearbox if you don't mind leaks and having to change the oil weekly. EP 90 diff oil will work but make slow gear changes especially when the 'box is cold. The standard weight oil is 30. 20/50 is little too thick but will work fine when the 'box is warm.
I think Mark and Mike are right, the throw out bearing is stuffed (oops) or one of the clips holding it to the throw out arm has let go. If you remove the rubber grommets on the bell housing and shine a light in you'll be able to see what the damage is. The the fun begins with you pulling the radiator, motor and gearbox out to replace the ancient design bearing.
I've used roller bearings in the past but can't find the direct replacement any more (anyone out there seen the black plastic coated roller bearing replacement for the 1275 clutch?). Colin Dodds (SpriteParts) in Sydney has a roller bearing in a fabricated carrier which works directly on the diaphragm clutch fingers (i.e. does away with the "button" the standard bearing presses on).
The standard carbon bearing may work for years but may fail very quickly. I've seen several disintegrate after very little wear. Perhaps there are dodgy aftermarket ones floating around. One other disadvantage is that they will always slow the motor rev's between gear changes, just a little due to friction.
Anybody else got a fix for replacing the carbon thrust bearing?
Regards,
Roger
I think Mark and Mike are right, the throw out bearing is stuffed (oops) or one of the clips holding it to the throw out arm has let go. If you remove the rubber grommets on the bell housing and shine a light in you'll be able to see what the damage is. The the fun begins with you pulling the radiator, motor and gearbox out to replace the ancient design bearing.
I've used roller bearings in the past but can't find the direct replacement any more (anyone out there seen the black plastic coated roller bearing replacement for the 1275 clutch?). Colin Dodds (SpriteParts) in Sydney has a roller bearing in a fabricated carrier which works directly on the diaphragm clutch fingers (i.e. does away with the "button" the standard bearing presses on).
The standard carbon bearing may work for years but may fail very quickly. I've seen several disintegrate after very little wear. Perhaps there are dodgy aftermarket ones floating around. One other disadvantage is that they will always slow the motor rev's between gear changes, just a little due to friction.
Anybody else got a fix for replacing the carbon thrust bearing?
Regards,
Roger
pixelsmithusa
Gerard C
San Francisco, USA
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1946 Austin 10 1953 Morris Minor Series II 1960 Austin-Healey Bugeye Sprite & more |
Apr 1, 2015 02:13 AM
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In reply to # 2953146 by AN5L8016
That's what I'd say as well. Time to pull the engine/trans, change the TO bearing, and check it all out while you're there.
X3
If the additive is intended for gearboxes that use gear lube (which is quite likely), and is similar weight, then it may not be the thing to use. More information is needed, but I still agree with the symptom indicating the release bearing. They can go suddenly, and will deteriorate quickly once they start to go, and can damage the clutch itself if continued to be driven that way. That's the funny feel you have in the pedal.
Gerard
http://gerardsgarage.com/
AN5L8016
Mark Haynes
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Apr 1, 2015 08:25 AM
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Roger- There's a procedure for making a roller TO for a B in the tech library-
DIY roller TO Bearing
I don't know how close the B TO is to the later A series, but it might be a starting place, especially if you use the height to the contact point as a guide for making your own.
NFI, Never done it, not necessarily recommending it, just a thought, YMMV
Caveat, caveat, caveat
'58 Bugeye
'05 Mini Cooper S
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-04-01 08:26 AM by AN5L8016.
DIY roller TO Bearing
I don't know how close the B TO is to the later A series, but it might be a starting place, especially if you use the height to the contact point as a guide for making your own.
NFI, Never done it, not necessarily recommending it, just a thought, YMMV
Caveat, caveat, caveat
'58 Bugeye
'05 Mini Cooper S
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-04-01 08:26 AM by AN5L8016.
Bingocaller
Mark Bergstrøm
Copenhagen, Vesterbro, Denmark
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Topic Creator (OP)
Apr 1, 2015 09:26 AM
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# Is it such a kit i need?
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/midget/clutch-gearbox-drive-train/clutch-systems/flywheel-clutch.html
part number GCK261?
# And then I guess new rubber engine and gearbox mounts now we have the engine out?
# Anything else?
1275 69 midget
69 Midget
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-04-01 10:14 AM by Bingocaller.
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/midget/clutch-gearbox-drive-train/clutch-systems/flywheel-clutch.html
part number GCK261?
# And then I guess new rubber engine and gearbox mounts now we have the engine out?
# Anything else?
1275 69 midget
69 Midget
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-04-01 10:14 AM by Bingocaller.
Apr 1, 2015 11:29 AM
Joined 9 years ago
9 Posts
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I have just a few thoughts...based on your discription of the problem.
The issue seems to be the clutch/pressure plate, or the "throw-out bearing". I don't think it has anything to do with the internal workings of the transmission.
The vibration in your clutch peddle indicates to me this is clutch related, and now that you can't get it into gear without it grinding also indicates a clutch issue.
I think its pretty likely that it is the clutch.
Let me know what you find out...as I would really like to know for sure.
Thanks,
tl
PS....don't forget to change the whole assemply....clutch, pressure-plate, and throw-out bearing.
The issue seems to be the clutch/pressure plate, or the "throw-out bearing". I don't think it has anything to do with the internal workings of the transmission.
The vibration in your clutch peddle indicates to me this is clutch related, and now that you can't get it into gear without it grinding also indicates a clutch issue.
I think its pretty likely that it is the clutch.
Let me know what you find out...as I would really like to know for sure.
Thanks,
tl
PS....don't forget to change the whole assemply....clutch, pressure-plate, and throw-out bearing.
AN5L8016
Mark Haynes
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Apr 1, 2015 12:56 PM
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In reply to a post by Bingocaller
# Is it such a kit i need?
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/midget/clutch-gearbox-drive-train/clutch-systems/flywheel-clutch.html
part number GCK261?
# And then I guess new rubber engine and gearbox mounts now we have the engine out?
# Anything else?
Yes, that would be the correct PN for your 1275. Motor mounts are up to you, if they are cracked with the engine weight on them, change them out. If you have a rear scroll seal leak and want to fix it, now's the time to install Gerard's kit, you'll be right there. Don't forget to check your pilot (spigot) bearing in the back of the crankshaft-where the input shaft rides for ovaling and wear. Remove the 2 slave cylinder bolts and pull the slave aside rather than disconnecting the line, and drain the gearbox before pulling it-its a mess otherwise.
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/midget/clutch-gearbox-drive-train/clutch-systems/flywheel-clutch.html
part number GCK261?
# And then I guess new rubber engine and gearbox mounts now we have the engine out?
# Anything else?
Good Luck.
'58 Bugeye
'05 Mini Cooper S
pixelsmithusa
Gerard C
San Francisco, USA
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1937 Chevrolet Master Deluxe
1946 Austin 10 1953 Morris Minor Series II 1960 Austin-Healey Bugeye Sprite & more |
Apr 1, 2015 01:38 PM
Joined 12 years ago
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In reply to # 2953934 by Tlane
I have just a few thoughts...based on your discription of the problem.
The issue seems to be the clutch/pressure plate, or the "throw-out bearing". I don't think it has anything to do with the internal workings of the transmission.
The vibration in your clutch peddle indicates to me this is clutch related, and now that you can't get it into gear without it grinding also indicates a clutch issue.
I think its pretty likely that it is the clutch.
Let me know what you find out...as I would really like to know for sure.
Thanks,
tl
PS....don't forget to change the whole assemply....clutch, pressure-plate, and throw-out bearing.
The issue seems to be the clutch/pressure plate, or the "throw-out bearing". I don't think it has anything to do with the internal workings of the transmission.
The vibration in your clutch peddle indicates to me this is clutch related, and now that you can't get it into gear without it grinding also indicates a clutch issue.
I think its pretty likely that it is the clutch.
Let me know what you find out...as I would really like to know for sure.
Thanks,
tl
PS....don't forget to change the whole assemply....clutch, pressure-plate, and throw-out bearing.
Not necessarily so, it's not unusual for the release bearing to fail long before the clutch goes bad, especially some of the poorer made ones. It not going into gear could be just a bad release bearing, with nothing wrong with the clutch itself.
Gerard
http://gerardsgarage.com/
pixelsmithusa
Gerard C
San Francisco, USA
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1937 Chevrolet Master Deluxe
1946 Austin 10 1953 Morris Minor Series II 1960 Austin-Healey Bugeye Sprite & more |
Apr 1, 2015 01:43 PM
Joined 12 years ago
2,859 Posts
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In reply to # 2953833 by Bingocaller
# Is it such a kit i need?
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/midget/clutch-gearbox-drive-train/clutch-systems/flywheel-clutch.html
part number GCK261?
# And then I guess new rubber engine and gearbox mounts now we have the engine out?
# Anything else?
1275 69 midget
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/midget/clutch-gearbox-drive-train/clutch-systems/flywheel-clutch.html
part number GCK261?
# And then I guess new rubber engine and gearbox mounts now we have the engine out?
# Anything else?
1275 69 midget
You should also consider getting a pilot tool and a new pilot bush. A pilot tool will allow you to center the clutch disc before you tighten the bolts down. The pilot bush fits in the end of the crankshaft and supports the end of the input shaft. These are usually badly worn and sometimes even missing. Not replacing it can lead to failure of the input shaft bearing. Both are cheap.
Gerard
http://gerardsgarage.com/
pixelsmithusa
Gerard C
San Francisco, USA
Sign in to contact
1937 Chevrolet Master Deluxe
1946 Austin 10 1953 Morris Minor Series II 1960 Austin-Healey Bugeye Sprite & more |
Apr 1, 2015 01:44 PM
Joined 12 years ago
2,859 Posts
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In reply to # 2954038 by pixelsmithusa
You should also consider getting a pilot tool and a new pilot bush. A pilot tool will allow you to center the clutch disc before you tighten the bolts down. The pilot bush fits in the end of the crankshaft and supports the end of the input shaft. These are usually badly worn and sometimes even missing. Not replacing it can lead to failure of the input shaft bearing. Both are cheap.
In reply to # 2953833 by Bingocaller
# Is it such a kit i need?
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/midget/clutch-gearbox-drive-train/clutch-systems/flywheel-clutch.html
part number GCK261?
# And then I guess new rubber engine and gearbox mounts now we have the engine out?
# Anything else?
1275 69 midget
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/midget/clutch-gearbox-drive-train/clutch-systems/flywheel-clutch.html
part number GCK261?
# And then I guess new rubber engine and gearbox mounts now we have the engine out?
# Anything else?
1275 69 midget
You should also consider getting a pilot tool and a new pilot bush. A pilot tool will allow you to center the clutch disc before you tighten the bolts down. The pilot bush fits in the end of the crankshaft and supports the end of the input shaft. These are usually badly worn and sometimes even missing. Not replacing it can lead to failure of the input shaft bearing. Both are cheap.
I also meant to add... they don't specify clutch brand. Get Borg & Beck brand if available.
Gerard
http://gerardsgarage.com/
Apr 1, 2015 01:47 PM
Joined 9 years ago
9 Posts
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Hey Gerald,
Sure, I didn't specify that it was just a clutch problem...said it sounds like a it involves the Clutch, or the pressure plate, or the throw-out bearing, but referring to the general problem area and not the internal workings of the transmission. Agree, more likely it is the throw-out bearing or "release bearing". Just suggesting that all clutch components be replaced because it will already be apart, and it really is a risky proposition to not replace all clutch components at the same time.
Sure, I didn't specify that it was just a clutch problem...said it sounds like a it involves the Clutch, or the pressure plate, or the throw-out bearing, but referring to the general problem area and not the internal workings of the transmission. Agree, more likely it is the throw-out bearing or "release bearing". Just suggesting that all clutch components be replaced because it will already be apart, and it really is a risky proposition to not replace all clutch components at the same time.
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